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  #241  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

So, even regarding apparently similar boats from the same brand there could be substantial differences in quality and performance that are expressed in the difference in PHRF the boats have that can be quite considerable.

Regards

Paulo
I think Paulo is on to something significant here. When a boat fails in a big sea it is not as if the whole boat fails. Something specific fails first which causes a cascade of events that the crew can not handle.
The port lower shroud fails.
Or a chain plate pulls out,
Or a deck leak causes the electronics to short out,
or makes the crew so miserable they can't think.
A gooseneck breaks,
The engine fails which means the power everything doesn't work.

Any of those things can be better or worse on any specific boat depending as much on the refit choices as the model.

Several of the stories I've read of successful deep water cruisers consisted of serious upgrades to their second boat. They knew exactly what was important to them and refit their boat accordingly.
This included adding stiffening beams in any place they thought the hull would flex too much and adding backing plates and up sizing rigging.
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  #242  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I am going back to the age thing. The Sailor and the boat ? Happy New Year ! A mark of the age 2013. We like to think the things we have are as good or better than they ever. The same can be said for the sailor. I am not going to cast first stone, well maybe I did? Age has to come into play. We are looking at the production boat. Everyone should agree if you pay 2 times or 5 times the cost for a one off just the cost should make it better. You do get what you pay for. I think the question is has time and tech made the production boat safe enough to go to sea. The question may be what is safe ? Great Thread Men ! Thank you, Lou
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  #243  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Sanduskysailor View Post
I am continually amazed at people making statements about passage making capabilities of their production yachts. Capsize ratios and stability indexes don't tell the whole story. Construction details are overlooked in these. .....
Absolutely true, but you overgeneralize the point about these ratios as well. All boats and sailors have their limits and you must respect them. Either try to avoid conditions beyond your boats capability or, rather than continue to pound through them, understand you'll be hanging on a drogue longer than a more capable boat. Both boats can still make the passage.

I do understand that my boat is not an all-purpose any condition boat. None really are. You need to understand what it can and can't do and manage that properly. Otherwise, she is perfectly capable of handling rough weather. Do her bulkhead tabs have the same strength of some others? Nope. I know a sister ship that has sailed from Newport to Tortola and back about a half dozen times. He has minor alignment issues with doors now. However, the boat has made the trip without any trouble and he absolutely loves the platform for its all around usefullness, not simply whether she was made to hunt hurricanes. As I do.
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  #244  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post




First thing that catches my eye in the comparison of those two boats, is yet ANOTHER trend I don't like in many of today's production boats... (grin)

Namely, the increasing use of saildrives... The principal advantage of them is to the builder, as their installation greatly simplifies the build - but there seems little to recommend them over a conventional shaft drive to the end user, mostly what I see are downsides, that are not overruled by their very few advantages ...

Needless complexity - why induce 2 right angles, into a drivetrain that could otherwise be direct?

BIG hole in the bottom of the boat, the potential for corrosion issues, and in some saildrives, the boat needs to be hauled simply to change the unit's gear oil... that's just insane...

Their typical placement further away from the rudder greatly reduces the effect of propwash against the rudder, making them less effective in close-quarter, slow speed maneuvering...

I'm a big believer in having the prop as accessible as possible from above the water, or as close to the end of the boat as possible... If you've ever had to dive on a prop to clear it of a line, or similar, you will greatly appreciate the difference of having to do so on the 2 boats pictured above... The location of that saildrive would make it very difficult to free-dive on it, much more so than the prop on the Beneteau... One of the downsides of today's boats with very beamy aft sections, getting to the prop - by either diving on it, or using a hook knife on a pole - is gonna be a lot more work on many modern boats, than on a boat like mine, with much finer ends...

I'm actually able to at least touch my prop without even putting my head underwater, so it's very easy to dive on, and in the couple of times I've caught a wrap on the prop, I've always managed to cut if free from the cockpit, without even having to put my dinghy over the side...

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Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-01-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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  #245  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Looking at the last few post would a sea trial be the test of the boat and crew? Enter a race? If the boat and crew do below the average should they both stay close to home until they met a degree of satisfaction ? Do I need X number of certs or miles logged ? The: " Can I sail to Bermuda with no experience thread" It has been put forth the numbers are not to be the only factor. How do you judge?
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  #246  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

You mean a coastal race? I don't think that would either prove nor prepare the crew for anything other than coastal racing. In fact, coastal racing techniques are probably the worst ocean passage techniques. You push more, with more options. A good ocean passage is filled with patience, not over powering.
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  #247  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
It's difficult to address this without committing the sin of over-generalization, but I think that is basically correct...

I'd cite a boat like the First Series boats designed by German Frers, built by Beneteau in the 80's... IMHO, those are a great example of a "go anywhere" production boat, a 38 or 42 would definitely be on my short list if I ever go to a bigger boat... There's good reason Ferenc Mate' included them in his book THE WORLD'S BEST SAILBOATS, along with the likes of Alden, Able, Cherubini, Hinckley, Swan, etc. when it was published in 1986... (Amazing, out of the 20 builders in that book, only 5 or 6 are still building sailboats, mass production rules, nowadays)

I've had a very close look through a First 42 that's done the Bermuda Race several times, and have poked around the recent offerings from Beneteau at the boat shows over the years... While Beneteau is still doing a very nice job these days, and are offering a product that will suit the overwhelming percentage of their "market" admirably, their current boats are not a "product" that I would care to attempt the sort of voyaging the Danish couple who own SOL have done with their "outmoded" stick-built Benny from the 1980's...

.....

SOL hauled for the winter in Nuuk, Greenland... If you're gonna sail from Svalbard to South Georgia, around Cape Horn and then over the top of North America via the NW passage, I'll take the old-fashioned underbody without a big flat section forward, a hull-to-deck joint capped with a perforated aluminum toerail, and a solid glass hull sans sexy picture windows, every time...

Jon, sometimes there are needed many years for naturally more conservative cruisers to find out that some of today's performance cruisers are just great cruisers. Try to remember and you will see that at the time those First were on the market as new boats, cruisers at that time regarded them as racing boats unfit for any serious cruising.

The same happened when the Vaillant 40 arrived at the market.

As I have said there are a huge variety of cruising boats and cruising hulls, mostly in Europe were more sailboats are sold. I will suggest you to try to sail the current First 45 or the 50 and I guess you will find out that they are great offshore cruising boats. I am sure that they will be regarded in the future as great bluewater cruising boats. They don't have the flat underbodies you are talking about and have a great cruising interior, one that certainly would be more than adequate for me. Take a look (First 45):

Beneteau-first-45

That Elan 400 that I had posted some pictures on a previous post has also not a flat bottom and I am quite sure it will be a great upwind boat.

There are several characteristics on a hull, in what regard design, that are important regarding a sea-kindly boat in what refers going upwind with waves. You would want a boat with a considerable rocker, a boat with fine entries and a boat with a moderate beam. Those are characteristics you find on the First 45 and on the boat you have posted.

For not only be seakind but also to sail well upwind you need a big draft, a good B/D ratio that can be maximized by a modern designed torpedo keel and by draft (assuming the boat is well designed).

What makes a modern good upwind hull regarding older hulls is not a difference in beam or rocker but has to do with an improved hull, specially in what regards the point were max beam is located and with transom design, that allows, without any inconvenient to the sea-kindliness, a better directional stability downwind ans a smaller transverse roll. The ones in the First 40/45/50 or even more the one of that Elan 400, are examples of very good upwind boats and also seakindly boats, I mean, if you sail them at the same speed and at the worst wind angle that an older cruising design would oblige.

As a 75 years Dragonfly solo cruiser said to a friend of mine when questioned if that boat was not very uncomfortable for him: "Well, I can go slower but you cannot go faster ".

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-01-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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  #248  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Jon, What a good looking boat you take great care of her ! Nice points about the easy access and the maintenance issue. What I would like to ask is in large seas will your prop stay in the water ? I assume it will because the rudder would have to stay in also. your boat does not seem to have a huge rocker look so the stearn will always be in the water. Questions by a new sailor. The only dumb question is the one not asked. I have tons of questions. Someone will post answers before I ask them most of the time.
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  #249  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
You mean a coastal race? I don't think that would either prove nor prepare the crew for anything other than coastal racing. In fact, coastal racing techniques are probably the worst ocean passage techniques. You push more, with more options. A good ocean passage is filled with patience, not over powering.
Ok how not to prove. How does one test and find and fix the weak places in the boat and crew ? Is it not a little late 1000 miles from home? How is it done? Thanks ,Lou
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  #250  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
All our boats are "used" once we buy or build them. Should buyers expect a more limited service life that's significantly different for current production boats?
Tx. best to you and yours this up coming year.
This is a great question - and one that's overlooked quite a bit in these debates.

When examples are presented of production boats sustaining structural damage in a storm...what does that really mean in terms of whether it's a "good boat" for typical cruising? In other words, let's take the opposite extreme in this example.

Where the "proper bluewater boat" sustains little or no structural damage in a significant storm (which in itself is actually pretty rare - something always breaks) - the production boat sustains more damage...but protects its crew and gets them home.

Would this be considered "failure" on the part of the production boat? I don't necessarily think so.

The premise underlying these arguments is that a boat should be built to last forever (to outbound's point). Is that the most important directive in design and construction? Maybe not.

Again, it comes down to price point. If boats are being built more lightly to service the typical use of the market, to the price point that market is willing to pay - BUT those boats still do a good job protecting its crew in serious storms...albeit with some damage...I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

What really changes in this equation is the used boat market. And that's the crux of outbound's question. If the above is happening and is a shift away from what the market was demanding 30 years ago in the more heavily built boats, it makes buying used production boats that are 10-20 years old a more sobering proposition.

More "disposable" boats at a lower price point? Hmmm. Any NA's or builders want to weigh in on that one?

I"ll think about it while we sailing today on our traditional New Year's Day outing. Later suckas!
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