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  #251  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Well, I will agree that a coastal passage or race would get the crew familiar with systems and coordinated roles. I interpreted your question to related to emergency procedures. You can and should train to heave to and deploy whatever sea anchor/drogue you use. Changing sails, etc, can all be done without actually being in the nastiest stuff.
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  #252  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I know a sister ship that has sailed from Newport to Tortola and back about a half dozen times. He has minor alignment issues with doors now. However, the boat has made the trip without any trouble and he absolutely loves the platform for its all around usefullness, not simply whether she was made to hunt hurricanes. As I do.
Hell, at 30 Y/O my HOUSE has minor alignment problems with its doors and it's never moved an inch from its moorings.
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  #253  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
....I"ll think about it while we sailing today on our traditional New Year's Day outing. Later suckas!
If you can sail today, you did New Year's Eve wrong.
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  #254  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
First thing that catches my eye in the comparison of those two boats, is yet ANOTHER trend I don't like in many of today's production boats... (grin)

Namely, the increasing use of saildrives... The principal advantage of them is to the builder, as their installation greatly simplifies the build - but there seems little to recommend them over a conventional shaft drive to the end user, mostly what I see are downsides, that are not overruled by their very few advantages ...

Needless complexity - why induce 2 right angles, into a drivetrain that could otherwise be direct?

BIG hole in the bottom of the boat, the potential for corrosion issues, and in some saildrives, the boat needs to be hauled simply to change the unit's gear oil... that's just insane...

Their typical placement further away from the rudder greatly reduces the effect of propwash against the rudder, making them less effective in close-quarter, slow speed maneuvering...
Totally agree - a saildrive would be a complete deal killer for me.
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  #255  
Old 01-01-2013
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Daniel////good to see you back by the way

I think maybe I wasnt being clear. I wasnt comparing the C&C, Sabre, Tartan of 1980 vs todays production boat. I was comparing apples and apples by by comparing it to the build quality of the 1980 Hunters, Catalinas, and Benne. Thus the refernece to Cherubini exception and the resale values.

I think the same applies today and dont put the modern Tartan, Sabre and C&C in the same category as the mass production boats. A 2011 C&C, Tartan , Sabre, while I Know Paulo may disagree about design characteristics which he knows more about, is a significant differnt quality boat than the mass produced ones. Thus the price differences/
Wow, step out for a few hours to put on the winter cover (which sucks!) and two pages of posts appear! All great stuff. Going to work tomorrow is going to be tough!

I see your point now. Apologies for missing it. That said, I'm still not sure I agree. Take Hunter out of it. The 70's and 80's was an early time for that company, and they made a lot of junk back then (IMHO).

I just don't think C&C, Pearson, Ericson, etc., made better boats than Beneteau or Catalina of similar vintage. Not from what I've seen.

By the way, current C&C is not the same build quality as Sabre, or even Tartan. I know it's owned by the same Tartan peeps, but the boats are much more lightly built. I think the new Tartans are incredibly nice. The C&Cs are just not in the same category. The C&C is no better than the Bene's or Catalinas. I've spent time on them, and I see nothing distinguishing them.

As for Tartan and Sabre, and others, I certainly agree, they are nicer than BeneHuntAlinas. In my opinion anyway. That's why you pay twice as much for them!
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  #256  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That's what I've always considered to be the primary drawback to the Leisure-Furl, the incredible weight of the boom on a bigger boat... The fittings at the gooseneck, and vang, have got to be massively overbuilt, the loads can be enormous...

Sailing that Trintella 50, with such a massive main, one of my biggest fears was always an accidental jibe... And, with the deeply swept-back spreaders on that rig (another modern production boat trend I'm not a fan of on a cruising boat), sailing deep downwind that was always a possibility...

I can't imagine having to deal with a broken gooseneck on a L-F boom, on a boat of that size... You were lucky no one was hurt, in that episode...
It's a pretty interesting story, but the truth is it never felt "dangerous." It's not like the whole thing "blew up" or anything. First thing though, just to clarify, it wasn't a Leisurefurl. It was a Furlboom. Main difference is that the furling drum is below the boom, aft of the mast. My personal opinion is that this is better than the Leisurefurl drum being forward of the mast, where it catches jib sheets, etc.

Anyway, our situation occurred during our first rally event in 2008. We were about halfway to Bermuda, with a reefed main. Then all of the sudden, the main started unrolling from the boom, which is how we knew something was wrong. Because we were reaching, and that boom furling mains feed into a luff groove on the mast, we had a hard time getting the main down, but managed.

We were on a Freedom 45, and if you know the boat, the main is large and the jib is tiny. Being without the main is a real issue. Thankfully, the wind was aft of the beam, so we were able to get the chute up and go with that for a bit. But then the wind moved forward and went very light. We were a motorboat at that point, as a practical matter. Problem was, we weren't sure if we had enough fuel. We were calculating and recalculating almost constantly, or at least I was!

Then the story got interesting, as we came across a cruise ship, and we were able to raise them. They agreed to give us some diesel, and it was a very cool experience. They launched a boat, put in a crew, all helmeted and ready for battle. They gave us 30 gallons of diesel in kitchen cooking oil containers! We were able to make it in to Bermuda where we effected repairs. We have a little bit of a write-up here, with some pics: 2008 Event.

There was also an article in Lats&Atts, but I can't seem to find it.

Sorry for the hijack, but it's a cool story, so figured I'd share.
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  #257  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
First thing that catches my eye in the comparison of those two boats, is yet ANOTHER trend I don't like in many of today's production boats... (grin)

Namely, the increasing use of saildrives... The principal advantage of them is to the builder, as their installation greatly simplifies the build - but there seems little to recommend them over a conventional shaft drive to the end user, mostly what I see are downsides, that are not overruled by their very few advantages ...

Needless complexity - why induce 2 right angles, into a drivetrain that could otherwise be direct?

BIG hole in the bottom of the boat, the potential for corrosion issues, and in some saildrives, the boat needs to be hauled simply to change the unit's gear oil... that's just insane...

Their typical placement further away from the rudder greatly reduces the effect of propwash against the rudder, making them less effective in close-quarter, slow speed maneuvering...

I'm a big believer in having the prop as accessible as possible from above the water, or as close to the end of the boat as possible... If you've ever had to dive on a prop to clear it of a line, or similar, you will greatly appreciate the difference of having to do so on the 2 boats pictured above... The location of that saildrive would make it very difficult to free-dive on it, much more so than the prop on the Beneteau... One of the downsides of today's boats with very beamy aft sections, getting to the prop - by either diving on it, or using a hook knife on a pole - is gonna be a lot more work on many modern boats, than on a boat like mine, with much finer ends...

I'm actually able to at least touch my prop without even putting my head underwater, so it's very easy to dive on, and in the couple of times I've caught a wrap on the prop, I've always managed to cut if free from the cockpit, without even having to put my dinghy over the side...

When I had the first boat with a saildrive, more than 10 years ago, I had about the same distrust as you and for the same reasons. If I could I would have the same boat with a conventional drive. At that time the boats that had saildrives were a minority and not as today where almost all use it, including for instance Halberg Rassy and many very expensive boats. As you can imagine in what regards to expensive boats they use it because they consider it a better system and I don't think it is a cheaper one anyway.

From one engine brand using Saildrive (Volvo-Penta) you have now all brands using saildrive as the most common system by far.

10 years after I understands better the advantages and become assured in what seemed to be the disadvantages. While I have heard of several boats sunk with problems with the conventional system (shaft broken, ingress of water) I don't know of a single one that went down with a faulty saildrive ring and are tens of thousand using it.

The main advantages are absence of vibration, silence, less maintenance (one time each 7 years) and completely watertight.

The advantage you refer of having the propeller near the surface will turn quickly in a disadvantage trying to come out of a port with big waves or in any other situation you need the engine with big waves and no wind. Those conditions will bring the propeller in and out of the water resulting in a very reduced efficiency and potential mechanic problems.

That's not by accident that today the actual successor of Mark's boat on Beneteau (the 41 and all the others) use sail-drive.

You are right regarding the disadvantage of maneuvering in port but today's boats with skinny keels turn in their own length and besides, at least here, the normal final approach is in reverse to have the boat with the bow to the outside and in that situation you have no advantage having the propeller nearer the rudder.

Anyway I believe that the standard will become quickly the two rudder system that has many advantages (not only for boats with a fat transom) and that would make completely irrelevant in what concerns maneuvering to have or not saildrive.

I believe we will see more and more the use of saildrives that can turn around giving you almost for free a stern thruster. The diminished maneuverability in port that the two rudder system provide would make necessary or at least very desirable a solution like that. Those saildrives are already used as part of the system on modern docking solutions for bigger boats.

I see that you have a Brunton's propeller. I had also one and they are great but I am a bit surprised to see a 3 blades in the one in your boat. I am sure it is correct but I am curious. Your boat needs more than a 30hp engine?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-01-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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  #258  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
Something I've been wondering about which this thread hasn't covered...

What about livability? Of course, the best go-anywhere boat from an engineering standpoint would have no windows and be built like a tank. (Can't leak if there are no openings to the weather or sea.) But when we step away from the theoretical, we have to have a boat that someone can actually stand to be on, and God forbid, possibly enjoy sailing.

My question is about the climate you intend to sail. If I were in the extreme North or South where the weather is horrible and cold, I want the best weatherproof shelter I can find. However, between those latitudes where the majority of humanity lives and thrives- it gets hot and humid. Weatherproof also means breeze-proof.

I see a lot of boat with almost zero ventilation. While this would be vastly superior for seaworthiness, can anyone stand to go below during the daytime?

Where would you trade some inherent safety for livability, design-wise?

I love the general design of the Endeavors / Irwins I see for sale. Lots of opening ports for ventilation, and open cabins for air circulation. Obviously not the boat one would feel most secure in the Roaring 40s, but likewise I cannot imagine spending time in the Caribbean or even the Southern US, in a boat without a lot of opening ports.

I lived two years in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba working tugboats. Sleeping at night went like this: Lie in bed sweltering. Wait ten minutes for your sweat to completely soak your bedding so that you are laying in a sopping sponge of your own sweat. Once completely wet, evaporation would begin to cool you off enough to sleep.

I don't care to live like that anymore. So what desgin factors are you guys willing to compromise perfection in order to have a boat you want to be on?
Another great point. And another reason that there is absolutely no one-size-fits-all solution.

Nothing wrong with picture windows...as long as they don't leak.
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  #259  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minnewaska View Post
absolutely true, but you overgeneralize the point about these ratios as well. All boats and sailors have their limits and you must respect them. Either try to avoid conditions beyond your boats capability or, rather than continue to pound through them, understand you'll be hanging on a drogue longer than a more capable boat. Both boats can still make the passage.

I do understand that my boat is not an all-purpose any condition boat. None really are. You need to understand what it can and can't do and manage that properly. Otherwise, she is perfectly capable of handling rough weather. Do her bulkhead tabs have the same strength of some others? Nope. I know a sister ship that has sailed from newport to tortola and back about a half dozen times. He has minor alignment issues with doors now. However, the boat has made the trip without any trouble and he absolutely loves the platform for its all around usefullness, not simply whether she was made to hunt hurricanes. As i do.
^^^^^^^this!
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  #260  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
Something I've been wondering about which this thread hasn't covered...

.....
My question is about the climate you intend to sail. If I were in the extreme North or South where the weather is horrible and cold, I want the best weatherproof shelter I can find. However, between those latitudes where the majority of humanity lives and thrives- it gets hot and humid. Weatherproof also means breeze-proof.

I see a lot of boat with almost zero ventilation. While this would be vastly superior for seaworthiness, can anyone stand to go below during the daytime?

Where would you trade some inherent safety for livability, design-wise?

....
I don't care to live like that anymore. So what desgin factors are you guys willing to compromise perfection in order to have a boat you want to be on?
You make the right questions but the answers are out there. You have just to look at the kind of boats that are used to cruise and live aboard on the North of Europe (if someone has the money to buy them) and on the South :



Solaris ONE 44 from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.



Two very seawothy boats with great interiors, the difference is that one favors living inside and the other outside, including sailing. The reasons for this different focus are obvious and have to do with climate.

You have several manufacturers of bluewater pilot/deck salons....all in the North of Europe because that is there where those boats make sense and where they are sold (I am not referring to false deck salons that are designed not to be sailed from the interior but just to have a bigger interior space).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-01-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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