Production boats- justified bias? - Page 27 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree176Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #261  
Old 01-01-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,715
Thanks: 0
Thanked 130 Times in 116 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoalFinder View Post
Something I've been wondering about which this thread hasn't covered...

What about livability? Of course, the best go-anywhere boat from an engineering standpoint would have no windows and be built like a tank. (Can't leak if there are no openings to the weather or sea.) But when we step away from the theoretical, we have to have a boat that someone can actually stand to be on, and God forbid, possibly enjoy sailing.

My question is about the climate you intend to sail. If I were in the extreme North or South where the weather is horrible and cold, I want the best weatherproof shelter I can find. However, between those latitudes where the majority of humanity lives and thrives- it gets hot and humid. Weatherproof also means breeze-proof.

I see a lot of boat with almost zero ventilation. While this would be vastly superior for seaworthiness, can anyone stand to go below during the daytime?

Where would you trade some inherent safety for livability, design-wise?

I love the general design of the Endeavors / Irwins I see for sale. Lots of opening ports for ventilation, and open cabins for air circulation. Obviously not the boat one would feel most secure in the Roaring 40s, but likewise I cannot imagine spending time in the Caribbean or even the Southern US, in a boat without a lot of opening ports.

I lived two years in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba working tugboats. Sleeping at night went like this: Lie in bed sweltering. Wait ten minutes for your sweat to completely soak your bedding so that you are laying in a sopping sponge of your own sweat. Once completely wet, evaporation would begin to cool you off enough to sleep.

I don't care to live like that anymore. So what desgin factors are you guys willing to compromise perfection in order to have a boat you want to be on?
Another great point. And another reason that there is absolutely no one-size-fits-all solution.

Nothing wrong with picture windows...as long as they don't leak.
Well, that's a mighty big "IF"...

For ShoalFinder, it's a mistaken assumption that to believe "liveability" is not a primary consideration in a voyaging boat... There is an entire chapter dedicated to the subject of Ventilation in the source I repeatedly refer to in these discussions, DESIRABLE AND UNDESIRABLE CHARACTERISTICS OF OFFSHORE YACHTS, after all...

Unfortunately, this is another area where many American production boats fall well short of the mark... With their almost exclusive use of forward-opening hatches, and rarity of those "outmoded" Dorade vents, many of today's production boats need to be buttoned up pretty tight, in any conditions where spray might be coming aboard... With an aft-facing main hatch, I can leave mine open and drawing in all but the worst of weather...



And, I've yet to see a more practical and elegant solution to ventilation offshore than Rod Stephen's old-fashioned Dorade vent, and yet they seem to be increasingly rare on today's modern boats...




Wanna know what the solution to ventilation on the Trintella 50 was in the tropics, when water was coming aboard?

Fire up the generator, and run the AC... It's amazing how many boats I see nowadays, where that seems to be the approach to "climate control"...

Now, don't get me started on opening ports in some of those sexy, ridiculously sloped cabin sides, that need to be closed back up for every passing rain shower... (grin) I'll take one of these clunky, hopelessly passe' vertical deckhouses, any day...

chef2sail and ShoalFinder like this.

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-01-2013 at 08:46 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #262  
Old 01-01-2013
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,818
Thanks: 58
Thanked 52 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Now, don't get me started on opening ports in some of those sexy, ridiculously sloped cabin sides, that need to be closed back up for every passing rain shower... (grin) I'll take one of these clunky, hopelessly passe' vertical deckhouses, any day...

I think I could learn to live with it as well.
__________________
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #263  
Old 01-01-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,715
Thanks: 0
Thanked 130 Times in 116 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Jon, sometimes there are needed many years for naturally more conservative cruisers to find out that some of today's performance cruisers are just great cruisers. Try to remember and you will see that at the time those First were on the market as new boats, cruisers at that time regarded them as racing boats unfit for any serious cruising.

The same happened when the Vaillant 40 arrived at the market.

As I have said there are a huge variety of cruising boats and cruising hulls, mostly in Europe were more sailboats are sold. I will suggest you to try to sail the current First 45 or the 50 and I guess you will find out that they are great offshore cruising boats. I am sure that they will be regarded in the future as great bluewater cruising boats. They don't have the flat underbodies you are talking about and have a great cruising interior, one that certainly would be more than adequate for me. Take a look (First 45):
That is a very good point, lots of merit to that argument, no doubt... Offshore sailors/cruisers tend to be more conservative and harder to convince, no question...

That First 45 is a beautifully executed boat, perhaps it will become a preferred passagemaker of the future... Still, I see some things I wonder about...

Pretty striking how difficult it is to find one pictured with a dodger, for one... There is not even a coaming built into the deckhouse to accommodate the fitting of one... With all those lines run aft along the coachroof back into the cockpit, it's gonna be a bit of a chore to fit a dodger that has much in the way of watertight integrity...

Bottom line, however, is the base price of that boat, roughly $450K USD... When I start poking around Yachtworld, and see what one could have for that kind of money in an older boat from a builder like Morris, Alden, Sweden, etc - well, seems like a no-brainer, to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The advantage you refer of having the propeller near the surface will turn quickly in a disadvantage trying to come out of a port with big waves or in any other situation you need the engine with big waves and no wind. Those conditions will bring the propeller in and out of the water resulting in a very reduced efficiency and potential mechanic problems.
If my prop ever comes remotely close to coming out of the water, I've got far bigger problems than my prop coming out of the water...

You make some good arguments in favor of a saildrive, but I still don't like them... (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I believe we will see more and more the use of saildrives that can turn around giving you almost for free a stern thruster. The diminished maneuverability in port that the two rudder system provide would make necessary or at least very desirable a solution like that. Those saildrives are already used as part of the system on modern docking solutions for bigger boats.
I'm afraid you are correct about that one...

One hour into the start of one of my deliveries this fall, I was sitting at the fuel dock at the Annapolis Yacht Basin, minding my own business while taking on fuel... A 35' powerboat was maneuvering alongside, when he suffered what he claimed to be a "software issue" with his Joystick/Pod Drive system, and came dangerously close to clouting my boat with his... Needless to say, best not get me started on the proliferation of these freakin' Dock n' Go training wheel setups for people who can't handle a boat, but have more money than they know what to do with... (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I see that you have a Brunton's propeller. I had also one and they are great but I am a bit surprised to see a 3 blades in the one in your boat. I am sure it is correct but I am curious. Your boat needs more than a 30hp engine?

Regards

Paulo
No, that's only a 13" prop, and my engine is a 29 HP Perkins Perama, it's a pretty good match...
MastUndSchotbruch likes this.

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-01-2013 at 10:23 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #264  
Old 01-02-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,177
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That is a very good point, lots of merit to that argument, no doubt... Offshore sailors/cruisers tend to be more conservative and harder to convince, no question...

That First 45 is a beautifully executed boat, perhaps it will become a preferred passagemaker of the future... Still, I see some things I wonder about...

Pretty striking how difficult it is to find one pictured with a dodger, for one... There is not even a coaming built into the deckhouse to accommodate the fitting of one... With all those lines run aft along the coachroof back into the cockpit, it's gonna be a bit of a chore to fit a dodger that has much in the way of watertight integrity...

Bottom line, however, is the base price of that boat, roughly $450K USD... When I start poking around Yachtworld, and see what one could have for that kind of money in an older boat from a builder like Morris, Alden, Sweden, etc - well, seems like a no-brainer, to me...
Most photos you find on the boat are promotional photos from Benetau. They don't feature a dodger because the boat looks sexier without one.

A dodger is available as an optional equipment in that boat as in the vast majority of boats. Cruisers use them almost always. Here you have two different ones with the boat dodger:





Regarding prices here you have a 2007 First 50 from 2007 for 270 000 euros:

BENETEAU FIRST 50 S - Ano : 2007 - EYB

and a 2008 First 45 for 244 163 USD

2008 Beneteau First 45 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regarding comparing prices of 5 year old boats with the prices of 20 or 30 year old boats, luxury or not, you can only be kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

If my prop ever comes remotely close to coming out of the water, I've got far bigger problems than my prop coming out of the water...
Some times you talk about the superior performance of a given sailing boat as a decisive factor in the choice of a boat and regarding that a propeller near the surface is also a bad choice. Many years ago, sailing not in dangerous weather but on a very uncomfortable one (left overs of a storm, big short steep waves, no wind, strong current against the wave direction) trying to comply with the request of a friend to arrive at Port in time for him not to miss a train, I just blew out the engine probably because the engine was sucking air on the cooling system. I should not have insisted but I was young and foolish.

Also long time ago I had a friend with a big steel boat that only give pleasure sailing with high winds and we used to go out in force 9/10 for having fun. I remember sailing at 12K on that big heavy boat and the image of passing fast 20m fishing boats, that were bouncing around sometimes with the propeller out of the water, is one that I would never forget. His boat, like mine, was on a very busy fishing port and he had quite a reputation as a sailor among fishermen and they don't have normally a lot of respect for pleasure sailors.

Anyway a lot of sailboats have a shaft propeller system almost as down as the one of a saildrive and that would not be a motive of concern and even with one nearer the surface as yours, well, you would only have to take that into consideration, it has disadvantages, but as you say, also advantages.

Regarding that do you know this system? Not really expensive as a safety item. I am considering having one:

http://www.piplers.co.uk/3336/Beucha...iving-Kit.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
... Needless to say, best not get me started on the proliferation of these freakin' Dock n' Go training wheel setups for people who can't handle a boat, but have more money than they know what to do with... (grin)
Modern 50 ft are very easy to sail and are rigged to be sailed by two people and offer an added security in what concerns sailing offshore, offering a more stable platform than a smaller boat. There is also needed a bigger breaking wave to capsize them. What prevented the use of those boats by a couple in what regards autonomy was the difficulty to dock the boat on a marina, in and out. Those joystick systems made just that not only possible but easy.

Of course, as all systems they can fail and the more complicated even more but we ride on very complicated cars, fully of electronic controls and not on old very basic ones and their reliability is very high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
No, that's only a 13" prop, and my engine is a 29 HP Perkins Perama, it's a pretty good match...
That was also the engine power I had on the Bavaria 36 that had a two blade autoprop. I guess both were recommended by autoprop technicians so probably it is to due to your boat being considerably heavier.

Have a nice year, "bom vento" (as we say) to you.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-02-2013 at 08:43 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #265  
Old 01-02-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,177
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Production boats- justified bias?

This comes from further back on this thread. I knew about these videos but I could not find them at the time and they are interesting in what regards to show the solidity of a narrow well built keel in what regards its attachment to the hull.

The boat is a Sigma 400, a light performance production cruiser from the 90's and still today a light and competitive boat (7500kg) by today's standards, a boat well ahead of its time. That boat was still in fact a local champion and a race winner, it has a big draft (2.29m) ballasted keel. It is a design from Rob Humphries the same designer of the Elan 400. We can see that not only its keel stood up but even the more fragile ruder is still in one piece. Off course the boat needs probably to be repaired but this was just not a sigle hit but a massive pounding.

Great story here:

http://www.skerriesnews.ie/files/may12.pdf

Sigma 400 Boats for Sale






Last edited by PCP; 01-02-2013 at 11:26 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production Boats and the Limits smackdaddy Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 991 4 Hours Ago 12:46 AM
Common production boats I can singlehand? MichaelZZ Boat Review and Purchase Forum 10 10-21-2011 09:35 AM
The demise of production boats Cruisingdad Boat Review and Purchase Forum 52 11-12-2007 06:03 AM
Modern Production Boats Don Casey Seamanship Articles 0 12-13-1999 07:00 PM
Modern Production Boats Don Casey Buying a Boat Articles 0 12-13-1999 07:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:22 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.