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  #21  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I raced a Swan 65 across the Atlantic a few years ago. Sturdily built boat. Bilt like a brick outhouse.

But i would hate it for cruising! Hard, harsh, no galley but a commercial kitchen, no softness, no privacy (pilot berths in the saloon) no wall coverings just wooden slats... A total mans racing boat and a hideuos cruising boat for a female.

I would much prefer the MUCH cheaper Beneteau 54 or the Jeaneay 57 than a Swan 65.
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  #22  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Brad - I was the one that started that thread PCP linked to in the second post.

Bottom line, virtually any production boat will take you virtually anywhere you want to go in the world if it's in good shape and you don't get yourself into crazy weather.

I'd say this argument was definitively put to bed (at least in my mind) by this guy who took a Hunter 49 around Cape Horn in an F-11 storm:

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequitur/

'Nuff said.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-24-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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  #23  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

I'd say this argument was definitively put to bed (at least in my mind) by this guy who took a Hunter 49 around Cape Horn in an F-11 storm:

Sequitur

'Nuff said.
It might have been, if Michael had ACTUALLY taken Sequitur "around" the Horn in a F-11 storm... (grin)

Not to disparage Michael's accomplishments with that boat in any way, they were VERY impressive, no doubt... But, simply for the sake of accuracy, that's not really what he did....
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Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but such blanket assertions are simply meaningless... To suggest that a Valiant "cannot compare" with a Beneteau because the latter is still in business, is absurd...

All things being equal, I'll take a stick built boat over one with a liner/pan construction, or conventional shaft propulsion over a saildrive, every time... Many of these features seen on newer production boats today, are largely a result of the drive to streamline the production process, make the build more economical, more than necessarily being an advancement in design, or construction...

I recently finished up the coastal delivery of a popular modern production boat... The deck and cockpit ergonomics were so poor as to be, IMO, downright dangerous in anything other than moderate conditions, in protected waters... Leaving the cockpit on that boat, offshore at night in dirty weather, no way... Again, to suggest that an "old blue water" would not be much safer than a modern production boat designed from the inside out in that regard, is simply nonsense...

Having said all that, I'm sure there are many production boats out there today that will suit the OP for his intended purposes, just fine...
Valiant is nice and pretty boat in her time. I have looked at two of them in the past, and I am sure I will sail her in the future to gain some hand on experience. I did not realize they were out of business. If they were still in production, I will not invest on them as an investor.

I found the old boats have no ergonomic what so ever. I always have stiff neck after sailing an old boat. Many like old boats, because they have small cockpit. I don't like old boat because the cockpit small and the sailing position sucks.

While sitting at the marina or at the anchorage, I cannot make an old boat cockpit bigger. For more recent boat, the wide stern is comfortable, erogom-nically design, it is far more comfortable to sail. When comes to sailing in dirty weather, one can easily rig up a few items in the cockpit to make it safe. In fact I am in the designing phase on these items to limit the crew moving during the storm. It is not so difficult at all.

I agree with you that some of the popular modern production boat have very few poor implementation. Obviously, all boat are not created equal either in the modern time or in the 80's. SOme of these poor installation are impossible of correct and costly to redo.

For example, the new Jeanneau DS. THey raised the cockpit deck so high so they can have more room below. But somehow that they forgot to raise the stanchion height. The lifeline is basically useless in rough weather.

Quote:
Again, to suggest that an "old blue water" would not be much safer than a modern production boat designed from the inside out in that regard, is simply nonsense...
Then it is needless to say, a new modern boat is not as safe an old blue water boat is just nonsense as well.

In the end we all want the same thing, but we have different ways to reach our objectives. Whose is right or wrong, who cares except our family.
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  #25  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post

When comes to sailing in dirty weather, one can easily rig up a few items in the cockpit to make it safe. In fact I am in the designing phase on these items to limit the crew moving during the storm. It is not so difficult at all.
Running lines aft to "ensure" you'll never have to go forward in heavy weather, huh? Good luck with that...

As one who believes the first rule of sailing is "Don't fall off the boat", a safe, well designed deck and cockpit are vitally important to me, one of the most important characteristics in any boat, IMO... it's extraordinary, how rare that is among a large sampling of today's production boats... I've developed a knack for moving about a boat over the years, and doubt I'm very "klutzy", in that regard... However, on the boat I mentioned, twice during that delivery I came very close to slipping or tripping due to a poor design, or inadequate/poorly placed nonskid, etc...

Both times, that occurred when the boat was tied to the dock...
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

John,

Good or bad deck design can be on high or low end boats. While CD likes to talk about catalina in a good way, I know of two locally that I would NOT want. One is a C34 with the halyard lines trying to go thru, yes go thru the built in fiberglass risers for the cabin top mainsheet traveler. Obviously it will not go thru so it goes around it rubbing.

This is probably the same issue with another poster that sold his third Catalina, and went with a CS36 over his preferred choice of a C36. Both the C30, 34, and 36 had deck organizers placed such that the lines from the mast did not thread easily to the cabin top.

This is not to say Catalina's do not have positives. I personally believe they do. Even still, there are problems. I could probably find the same issue with an Oyster or Swan If I really had to look. My Jeanneau has some issues too. But like all things great and small, one needs to fix or correct them if one is going to be on them a lot.

Valients have positives about them......but still are built to older school techniques if one will, hense why they probably went out of biz, just as another did recently with good style boats for the era they were designed in.

At the end of the day, there is NOT a perfect boat! Even a 1-2 million dollar boat will have issues. Having been in the home building industry for 30 yrs, yeah bat building is different, yet the same, in that many builders build to a price point. the framing and structure part is the same! Just how much bling and type you put on it!

As this thread starts to go in the same direction that smackies original thread did! At the end of the day, does the boat meat your expectations of what you want it to do. Both looks, can you get around, live in it, like the looks etc.

Marty
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
It might have been, if Michael had ACTUALLY taken Sequitur "around" the Horn in a F-11 storm... (grin)

Not to disparage Michael's accomplishments with that boat in any way, they were VERY impressive, no doubt... But, simply for the sake of accuracy, that's not really what he did....
Man you're kind of picky dude. If I remember correctly, he did "round" the Horn west-to-east in better weather after popping out of the Beagle, then ducked into one of the Tierra del Fuego channels on the eastern side.

Sequitur Rounds Cape Horn

After some recuperation, they popped back out to continue east, and got caught, in F-10/11 conditions, south of Isla de los Estados.

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/sequ...xjMsgID=210007
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-24-2012 at 08:16 PM.
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Smack,

Either way you look at it, getting around the horn i one piece is a good thing. I also know of a 34' mid 80s Jeanneau that did a non stop around the horns also! I do feel Jeanneau builds a better boat than Hunter, but reality is, probably not by much. Kinda of a Chebby vs buick or olds difference. Or maybe a kia vs chebby or some such thing.

marty
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Jeanneau builds a better boat than Hunter, but reality is, probably not by much.
marty
I would say by a lot.
Hunter is in Bankruptcy and Jeanneau is one of the top selling brand names in the world and is fully owned by CNB which is the top selling boat manufacturer in the world. Thats a huge difference.

You become number one by having a great product.

You become bankrupt because you are not number 1.
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  #30  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Maybe your past not mine. My furniture at home is made of solid wood...no veneers...no particle board. Why should my boat be any different. Yes you pay for quality for sure and thats a choice you have. What is better the real think or the glued together reproduction. Thats your choice. As far as sustainability it requires a larger carbon footprint to fabricate the modern day woods and finishes than real wood. In addition real wood will eventually decompose...not so with plastics so thats a moot argument.

....
Then you have the mom and pops still in business Tartan, Sabre, C& C, Caliber, Island Packet, Not your run of the mill production boats ( some dont even consider them as such) who still use quality woods, have superior designs and major R&D monies and modern designs. They are still in business too and are very solvent companies.


A true statement, a 50 foot wave as no respect for any boat, any age. I would rather be in a heavier boat, well designed for sea motion, than in a boat all the weight was taken out of it to save money.

....
Dave
Dave, there are top bluewater modern boats, very expensive boats, that don't use wood neither for bulkheads neither for the interior. For bulkheads and for the interior they use lighter, stronger composite materials that in some cases just have wood in their composition and does look like wood but has only a fraction of the weight.

The reason is to take away all the not needed weight from the upper parts of a sailboat to concentrate all the weight on a lead keel. That permits not only a more strong and seaworthy boat with a overall better stability but also a more stiff and powerful boat, a faster boat and not less comfortable since the weight is the same.

A good example of this kind of boats are XC Yachts, boats that are more heavy than for instance HR, but faster. I don't no if you noticed but last year and this year, different XC making the ARC had one thing in common: amazing results given the weights of the boats. That's what I am talking about, fast comfortable and seaworthy cruisers with all the weight at the right places.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo
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