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  #31  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Hunter is in BK more due to the parent which also owns a number of power boat makes. That is the side that is BK! The Hunter portion had to go with the parent. Hunter will probably come out alive IMHO. For that matter, Jeanneau also was BK in the mid 80s, but being as it was french, when bangor-punta the parent went BK, the French gvmnt had a buyer/take over person that sold to Group Beneteau, which has allowed Jeanneau to take over as the overal #1 boat builder in the world with their PB range being pretty large. There is also a inflatable line that was the Fench maker that also went BK, in which GB also took over. Going back to BP's BK in the 80's, they also owner Cal, O'Day and Ranger IIRC along with a few others that are no where to be found other than used today. Henri Jeanneau that started that company, did start with high power motor boats, later switching to fiberglass, then a sailboat in the late 60s from is initial start in the later 50's.

many manufactures have gone thru some tough times and come out swinging. Hopefully while I do not like the Hunter line for various and sundry reasons, nothing major, I do hope it comes out swinging in the end! still building boats etc. WE in NAmerica need boat builders/manufacturing jobs etc. Not all of us can be puter key pushers!

Jeanneau/beneateau/lagoon do build in high tech factories, keeping things pretty tight as far as materials go etc, so they can build at a profit. Jeanneau does have some 30 and 33' boats one can get into for less than 150K base, out the door for less than 200K, but that still takes a 100-200K salary minimum to afford this with a home etc. Still out of the range of an ave income earner of 50K here in NA!

Marty
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  #32  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but such blanket assertions are simply meaningless... To suggest that a Valiant "cannot compare" with a Beneteau because the latter is still in business, is absurd...

.....
What Rock is saying is that a good modern designed cruiser like the Hanse 415 or the jeanneau 409 is a better designed boat than the Vailant not because the Vaillant was not a great boat (and still is) but because 30 years in design developments make the modern boats better overall sailing boats.

I believe we all agree on this. I am quite sure that if an overall 40ft going around cruiser was commissioned today to Bob Perry, the boat would have more in common with the Hanse or the Jeanneau than with the Vailant.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo
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  #33  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Dave, there are top bluewater modern boats, very expensive boats, that don't use wood neither for bulkheads neither for the interior. For bulkheads and for the interior they use lighter, stronger composite materials that in some cases just have wood in their composition and does look like wood but has only a fraction of the weight.

The reason is to take away all the not needed weight from the upper parts of a sailboat to concentrate all the weight on a lead keel. That permits not only a more strong and seaworthy boat with a overall better stability but also a more stiff and powerful boat, a faster boat and not less comfortable since the weight is the same.

A good example of this kind of boats are XC Yachts, boats that are more heavy than for instance HR, but faster. I don't no if you noticed but last year and this year, different XC making the ARC had one thing in common: amazing results given the weights of the boats. That's what I am talking about, fast comfortable and seaworthy cruisers with all the weight at the right places.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo
Yes you are right. I was looking at some of the other cruisers too like Hylas, Amel, Nordic, Outbound I am not as well versed in the Eiorpean boats as you and dont get to see them here much. I know they use composite materials now, but the quality between them and the others even in the interiors is at different levels IMHO

Good christmas and new year to you too. I am the Hanhnuka guy and my wife is the christmas person in this family so we get to celebrate both
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  #34  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I believe we all agree on this. I am quite sure that if an overall 40ft going around cruiser was commissioned today to Bob Perry, the boat would have more in common with the Hanse or the Jeanneau than with the Vailant.

A good Christmas to you

Regards

Paulo
I would agree basically because its newer and the use of computers in designer have a greater influence today in terms of virtual testing etc as well as new age materials not aorund 30 years ago.

Not sure Perry would go for the beammmy boats For example if you look at one of my favorite more modern Perry designs which I like, the Saga 43 it is narrow by todays production boat standards. Thre are so many variations and design attitudes its hard to pin point an overall stratagy. New materials is an advancement.
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  #35  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I think it really comes down to one thing. Would you like to be sailing a boat that can take a hit from a container in 40 knots of wind without damage, or not?
Some manufacturers have a reputation for strength and quality, others have fans.
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  #36  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
I think it really comes down to one thing. Would you like to be sailing a boat that can take a hit from a container in 40 knots of wind without damage, or not?
Some manufacturers have a reputation for strength and quality, others have fans.
Hold on, you hit a partially submerged container, in 40 kts wind, and you did no damage? What do you sail? How fast were you going? 40 kts of wind is gale+ conditions... how large were the seas? How did you know it was a container? WOuld love to hear that story.

Brian
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  #37  
Old 12-25-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

It happened between Newport and Bermuda, November 2010. It was dark so I really cannot answer the waves question, possibly 12 feet??? Probably sailing at 5 to 6 knots, reefed and beating into SE winds, but I wasn't on the wheel so I don't know for sure.
It was a tremendous "bang" and threw us on our beam ends, as it either came down the face of a wave or we slammed into it, just aft of the main shrouds at the waterline. We noticed a piece of the boot stripe missing at that spot when we got in the dink in the VI.
I've hit a whale before and that's like punching flesh; this was an extremely hard, solid hit that threw a 38 ton vessel on her beam ends instantly. I do not know for a fact that it was a container, but it's my best guess and the lost paint is sort a of square bit, like the corner of a container would make.
The boat was a Pearson.
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  #38  
Old 12-25-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Capta so you dont know at all if it was a container. You dont even know the size of the waves but you know the unseen loud bang was a container? That wont stand up in court.

We fell off a wave once in another boat and when we hit the bottom there was a tremendous crash, absolutly tremendous smashing sound that had us in the bilges looking for leaks. When we haulded the boat later we saw the indentation in the antifouling of a turtle shell.

And not a big turtle at that.
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  #39  
Old 12-25-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Okay, Mark, that's not nearly as exciting as a container.
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  #40  
Old 12-25-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Read this thread on Xmas morn and bless the Lord I was able to build a semi custom boat. Our learned contributors note the crew is the weak link is sailing. They do not stress that on a semi custom boat you have the comfort knowing everything is stronger then needed, everything is set up to meet your needs and sensibilities. When you get in the bad stuff you worry about what's important- not the boat failing you. I've spent the last ten years planning my escape. Figured it's worth getting rid of the "toys" ( motorcycles, cars, downsizing the house etc.) to be able to afford the boat I want. Wife knows the fancy vacations, clothes,furniture etc. is a thing of the past. You are betting your life on your boat. What's your life worth to you. They say "if you didn't bring it with you -your don't have it". What they don't say is that's true in the hours before anyone will show up in a coastal setting as well as in the middle of the ocean. Coastal cruising is packed with more potential dangers. It's the hard edges, ships and breaking waves that sink you. Features I thought important
good gyradius and >120 degrees capsize quotient
solid glass hull
internal lead ballast with bulb
non metallic tanks
No balsa, no wood anywhere as structural element
manifold to limit thro hulls
Not dependent on form stability, good comfort motion
All systems accessible for repair or replacement
Designed with "blue water" in mind
collision bulkhead
prop on a shaft
Fast and weatherly

I have nowhere the experience of some other respondants but have done multiple Bermudas and long transports. Been in the 50kt+ storms. Been knocked down, have had the floorboards floating, pooped, watched the hull "oilcan" when the in fill of a "production" boat let go,been called overdue with the Coastguard out looking for us.

If you can afford a semi custom boat - go for it. Evertime you sit in the dinghy and look back you will know you made the right decision. If you can't afford it look at used boats that were single owners and well maintained. Rather be on a twenty year old Shannon,Cherubini, Valiant, PSC, Mason etc. then worry what some hungover line worker did. Want the safety factor of all systems to be in mulitples.
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