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  #81  
Old 12-26-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
I have been looking over this thread an I would like to ask What makes a boat a Non-production boat ? Is it a one off? Does X number of boats per year make it so ? Cars have been used as an example. Since I am from Ky and have been in and know about the corvette Factory. I know you can go to the corvette factory and (order) make the choice of what you want to have and watch them build your personal car start to finish and even help some with your car for a fee. This is a production car for sure. If you order your boat is it a non-production boat? Does a factory make a boat a production boat? The number of employees working on it?
How would you know the employee laying the fiberglass and mixing the resin is so much less skilled then the Craftsman preforming the same duty in the plant? This is one point I saw in this post. The skill level of the worker building. I for one would want my boat built buy a worker paid a living wage. This might mean a boat from the EU or USA. Canada or other place I will not try to name every country I have left several great places out. My thought What makes production good or bad? Is it craftmanship the way the boat is built? Is it the plans and design? Learning from you all, Lou
Hi Lou,

Without pretending to teach nobody, normally you call all boats that are not unique (one off) and are made at the same shipyard, production boats. Normally even if some customization is allowed in small production, the hull molds, furniture molds and other stuff is used to make several boats.

We call mass production boats the ones that are made in big shipyards using robotics, advanced and very expensive machines and techniques that assure a very good control quality but are only possible (by their price) to be used on a large scale. This type of production effectively brings the prices of the boats down but does not allow customization (except options) and many times does not provide the same quality of finish of the boats made with more intensive man work and craftsmanship.

Regarding design many times small shipyards that only build very few boats of each model don't have the financial capacity to have the best NA designing their boats (even if they can get lucky and hire a young talent) and the best interior designers doing the interior. Regarding boat design it is not only being talented or not but having access to computer programs that cost more than a boat and to tank testing (also very expensive) tools that today are commonly used by big NA firms to design better and faster sailboats.

So, normally on the mass production boats you get the best designs, hull and interior but not always the best materials or finish. On small shipyards you get semi-custom boats with a very good finish and handcraft but not normally with the best designs. Most of the time on the small shipyards it is the owner that is also the designer. Sometimes they are very good in designing their boats, like in the case of Nordship, most of the time, just average even if the interior is almost always good. Of course the price of these are substantially more, sometimes almost the double.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-26-2012 at 11:24 PM.
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  #82  
Old 12-26-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I think the main assertion in all this is, and always has been, this:

Production boats can handle "blue water" just fine. You might have to deal with certain compromises and limitations (as with any boat) - but there's no reason you can't take them anywhere on the planet if you take care of them, be smart, and sail them well.
Preface that quote with the word "Some" - aw, hell, I'll even grant you "Numerous" - and I would agree...
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  #83  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Agree completely... But, the bulk of what I've been posting in this thread, has been in response to the blanket assertion that "today's production boats are far better... than the stick built boats of the 80's"...

....
And that is true if we take that as a generalization. Regarding production boats in the 80's the quality was a lot less homogeneous than today, in what regards control quality and in what regards design quality.

Today only American mass production builders insist in designing the boats in the house and having the owner a definitive way regarding how the boats should be designed.

In Europe all the mass production builders have the best NA and the best interior designers working for them and the owner just wants to provide what sailors want and not sell to them his idea of what a sailboat should be. This have put boat design on the hands of the best professional and the results are clear in what regards top quality.

That does not mean that there was not great boats made in the 80's or great designs just that the global quality of design and control quality was average when compared with today.

Another issue is that the market today is a lot more diversified than in the 80's and the choice of type of boats is much wider than what was before. Some boats, not to say many, even if they can sail pretty well, have prioritized interior spaces over sailing functionality and have higher freeboards or small deck passages than what should be convenient for a better sailing functionality. I have to say that on that Hunter 49 the space is really very small for a 49ft boat

There are also boats that are good overall sailboats with an adequate stability, easy to sail, with great storage space and a great interior at a price, that comparatively with the boats from the 80s is low. These boats sail better than the boats from the 80's have more interior space, more light and storage. Eventually upwind they can be a bit less comfortable but it is a small price to pay for an overall better performance.

When you deliver a Jeanneau 409 or a Hanse 415 I would like to have your opinion. The rigging is very simple and they are not made for the ones that like to trim perfectly the boat, they are made for the ones that buy point and shot cameras, but as with some of those, they can get very good results without knowing much of anything.

Not all modern cruisers, even if they look alike are the same. The main difference many times has to do with the ability to sail upwind with waves, that is something that most of the sailors don't do these days and the builders and designers know that

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2012 at 12:11 AM.
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  #84  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petmac View Post
Catalina 42 ? For that kind of money you could buy a used Bermuda 40. That's what I would do.
Really?

The OP is looking to cruise with his wife and THREE kids.

The Catalina 42 is a solid coastal cruiser with a HUGE interior volume and is available in two and three cabin models. It's designed for the type of cruising the OP described.

The Bermuda 40 was a solid offshore boat when built, but the interior accomodations are tighter than in my Catalina 30!

Not to mention the fact that most of the B40's on the market are from the 60's and 70's. To make that boat a viable, reliable family cruiser you're looking at a huge expense over the purchase price for a complete refit - think 1970's wiring standards for a start.

Hmm I can have a safe, comfortable, modern coastal cruiser with plenty of storage and room for the family to stretch out both above and below decks. Or for $100K more, after a lengthy refit I can have a 40 year old phone booth that will make everyone miserable and break down because after all it's still 40 years old.

Now which way should I go?
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  #85  
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
And, as far as really getting "out there" in such a design, no way would such a boat be my choice... If you were to suffer a hard grounding in a remote region, hundreds of miles from the nearest Travelift, with a keel with such a narrow chord, you could be well and truly screwed...

Wonderful sailing and "performance" with such boats, unquestionably...
I know that we mostly agree and this is not to piss you quite the contrary. I want to show you, in what regards the kind of boats you mention above, the best the market has to offer in what regards 40ft production boats...and not that expensive, considering the material and quality. In the 80's there were also boats to fit this purpose even aluminium ones but the quality of the design of this one is light years ahead and the overall quality is also probably better.


Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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  #86  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

I have not looked at paulo's video, but somewhere on U-tube is Hunter's how they in water test boats. yes, one of the tests is running aground at hull speed! I believe there is a video of a European builder doing the same, DuFour?!?!?! also what would be a production boat builder in the same genere of J, B, H and C.

Then there is also a story of a Jeanneau SO37 that was in charter, one person hit a rock, keel fell off unbeknown to the charterer. Another took the boat out for a week, then the 2nd person brought the boat back saying it was not sailing well, only THEN to find out the keel has fallen off 2 weeks/charter's before!

High volume production boats are bad?!?!?!? I Do not think they are "that" bad!

Marty
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  #87  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Jon,

I read John's (Morgan's Cloud) articles you linked above. And though they're pretty good, there's this...

Quote:
Our own Morgan’s Cloud, designed by Jim McCurdy, has a tiny interior for her size and her fine ends make the lazarette and forward cabin cramped. But she can slug it out to windward for days on end, never pounding and rarely bringing green water on deck.

Yes, I know, ladies and gentlemen don’t go to windward and nobody believes that more than I. But if you really go out there voyaging, sooner or later you won’t get a choice; the wind will be forward of the beam, maybe for days on end. When that happens it is vital that you have a boat that doesn’t make the experience any more uncomfortable than it has to be, or worse still, dangerous.
I'm sorry, but how exactly is enduring a "tiny, cramped interior and poor aft storage" for the entirety of my sailing life - just so I can finally be happy when the weather finally swings around on my nose for a day or two, and I can fly both the jib and yankee as I "slug it out to windward", only puking 3 times instead of 6, and going 1 knot faster than that production boat behind me - a good thing?

Nope, just not a convincing argument. I'd rather slow my production boat down a bit and eat some gnocchi as I stretch out in my ginormous modern cabin wondering why that dude in the old boat in front me is working so hard.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-27-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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  #88  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nope, just not a convincing argument. I'd rather slow my production boat down a bit and eat some gnocchi as I stretch out in my ginormous modern cabin wondering why that dude in the old boat in front me is working so hard.
Or heave to, throw some popcorn in the microwave and watch a DVD on the flatscreen

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
sooner or later you won’t get a choice; the wind will be forward of the beam, maybe for days on end.
How many of us typically sail for "days on end". In reality most destinations for most of us are day sails or overnighters.
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Last edited by JimMcGee; 12-27-2012 at 11:28 AM.
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  #89  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
I have not looked at paulo's video, but somewhere on U-tube is Hunter's how they in water test boats. yes, one of the tests is running aground at hull speed! I believe there is a video of a European builder doing the same, DuFour?!?!?! also what would be a production boat builder in the same genere of J, B, H and C.

Then there is also a story of a Jeanneau SO37 that was in charter, one person hit a rock, keel fell off unbeknown to the charterer. Another took the boat out for a week, then the 2nd person brought the boat back saying it was not sailing well, only THEN to find out the keel has fallen off 2 weeks/charter's before!

High volume production boats are bad?!?!?!? I Do not think they are "that" bad!

Marty
Jesus Marty, look at the videos I post

I even post the ones you are talking about





Regards

Paulo
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  #90  
Old 12-27-2012
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Re: Production boats- justified bias?

Come on guys you are looking at the extremes here. I wouldnt call a Sabre, Caliber, IP or Tartan some old wooden boat. There is a reason they are still made too. They arent antiquated designs. They are not terribly slow boats. The workmanship, accompanyments, standard equipment quality such as winches, traveler are a cut above the average production boat. The interior wood is beautiful. It no more fair to denigrate or make fun of them than someone making fun of the Catalinas, Benetaus, and Hunters. They cost more yes. Just like a Lexus costs more than a Chevy. People who buy them dont feel they are wasting their money. Hey my friend with his newer Sabre 402 can pop his popcorn, watch his TV and is in a comfortable boat. They hold their value better than the production boats. Some like Paulo want that Hanse 415 a nice quick cruiser...moderately priced. Looks like good quality. I will go check it them out as I value his opinions on boats And guess what youll be eating that Sabres dust on your normal coastal cruising too.

Every boat is a trade off and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No one should be made to feel less than in the boat they decide to buy. The object is to go sailing whether its in a production boat, or a specialty boat.

Dave
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