SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Are Centre Cockpits Good?

8K views 31 replies 19 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
I'm looking for a good bluewater boat that is somewhere between 42' and 52' or there abouts. I started a couple of months ago and realized that I had quite a long list of boat prejudices. I have been able to overcome most of them. For example, wood, steel, and aluminum can be okay - maybe even very good. Sloops don't necessarily rule the world - I would be much happier with a cutter or a ketch, or even a schooner. Staterooms with sea berths are not a waste of space - they're excellent for stowage, a workshop, and sometimes even for sleeping. Sprits are not passé and ugly, they are very useful and even beautiful. On and on my rehab goes.

The one that is giving me the most trouble is the centre cockpit! I have enough bluewater experience to know that rough seas and high winds gets the helmsman cold and wet even in the aft cockpit of a 57' boat - I can imagine what it would be like in a CC. The CC is more prone to filling with seawater and probably slower to drain. It's probably more ergonomically difficult to eyeball the mainsail. I can go on with why centre cockpits are bad and the only good thing I can think of is that the pitching motion of the boat is kinder to the helmsman.

I had the chance to sail a CC Swan to Morocco, but had to decline so I've never sailed a CC boat in my life. Can someone please fill me in on the virtues (if any) of a CC? Or are they really just bad things for an ocean going sailboat? Remember, I'm talking about bluewater and crossings, not just coastal sailing. I saw a beautiful cold moulded Van der Stadt 52 that I can't buy because it has a CC :(

Thank you for all helpful insight.

FM
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I think the main reason for them is the private aft cabin rather than any benefit on deck. They frequently have very big engine compartments under the CC as well.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I've ocean sailed both extensively; center cockpit and aft cockpit.
A center cockpit boat will rarely ship water in the cockpit as it's higher and with a good dodger won't be wet. In large following seas you're unlikely to get a wave break into the cockpit and the motion amidships is kinder. Almost all aft cockpit cruisers we see have cloth panels alongside the cockpit to reduce the spray, an indication of wetness.
Obviously, visibility from the center cockpit is much better and though many aft cockpit cruisers tout the ease of docking, being lower and closer to the stern for getting a line to the dock, I almost always use a spring line as my first line to a dock, which is more convenient with a center cockpit.
As mentioned above the aft cabin in a center cockpit boat is a pretty nice feature and they usually provide a better machinery space under the cockpit as well.
I doubt that I'd choose a boat just because it had a center cockpit, but it would definitely be in the plus column, especially if I wanted a really comfortable bed in a nice aft cabin.
I look for liveaboard comfort at anchor (so many lovely looking, high performance cruising boats are horribly uncomfortable at anchor even in a mild swell), sea-kindliness and construction quality first, putting aside esthetics. We do not have one of the prettiest boats in an anchorage, but we do have one of the most comfortable and she's a pretty good sailing boat too; pictured above doing about 8 knots sailing into Admiralty Bay, Bequia.
 
#5 ·
Generally a center cockpit is much higher above the spray, and pretty much 100 percent have enclosures that provide protection from anything a prudent skipper is going to sail through. My little dinky 38 ft center cockpit has four 2 inch drains, not that I expect it to ever take waves over the stern that would fill it's 8 foot by 6 foot space.

That enclosed cockpit provides an additional room on the boat with a 360 degree view - and because you are centered on the boat you have a much better sight line to all corners - makes for easy of maneuvering. Generally a sailboat pivots about where the helm is on a center cockpit - add that to the list of pluses.
Okay, now that I've destroyed the list of negatives you have provided:

The full sized aft cabin with walk around berth with overhead ventilation is an added benefit, show me one like that on a monohull and I'll show you a view of peoples ankles in the cockpit (i.e. lack of privacy). The aft deck is a porch at anchor and a wonderful storage platform underway.

That wonderfully stable secure, and dry cockpit that has less pitch than a monohull has a drawback of course, less vomit on the sole. So, if you are into the vomit deal from pitching and soaked crew go it.
 
#6 · (Edited)
That enclosed cockpit provides an additional room on the boat with a 360 degree view - and because you are centered on the boat you have a much better sight line to all corners -
Many trade offs here and each boat handles it differently

As my wife and i look at boats in the 42 ft range the option of getting a center cockpit boat is more readily available so I have tried doing some do dilligence and travel in a few.

Agree on the better 360 view, only because you are higer though....disagree on the sight line to all corners, the bow yes, you are closer, but in an aft cockpit you are at the stern and closer therefore you also have a better sight line of the stern too,

The volume of room for a large large aft cabin is undeniable and a nice feature. Because we will only cruise to the Carribean and will not be at sea for extreme long trips, this feature is appealing to have a nice aft cabin with headroom. However for a blue water cruising boat spending a lot of time at sea, this would be less desirable IMHO and something where there would be seaberths more appropriate.

One place that gets sacrificed in center cockpit boats I have noticed is the galley and the salon space. Some of ther center cockpit boats have straight line galleys and some even located in the area leading back to the aft stateroom. I prefer a U shape or L shape galley you can safely work in under way. generally salon space on the center cockpit boats is 1/4 less than aft cockpit boats. Since this is where I spend most of my time below when awake this enters into the decision also.

In terms of seward motion I am having a difficult time understanding how being up higher in a center cockpit boat creates less side to side motion than being lower in an aft cockpit boat. being closer to the centerline of the fore to aft motion yes, I get that part, being higher can not be less motion for the side to side motion. Seems like a tradeoff.

In the boats I have traveled on I found the lower freeboard of the aft cockpit seemed to have an easier seaward motion than the pitching of the center cockpit in most conditions. Also the angle of heel as you got to 12 degrees seemed to exaggerate the motion on a center cockpit boat more than an aft cockpt boat. It may have just been the boats I was on, but the exagerated height of the boom off the water thus the wind pressure at a higher point made the sailing characteristics less efficient than on an aft cockpit boat with the main and boom closer to the water. The main sail covered more of the area from the mast head to the base of the mast thus spreading the loads lower on the boat. This was more noticeable to me in gust situations. Many of the center cockpit boats also had less sail area as the booms were substantially shorter than aft cockpit boats which seemed to have stronger sail plans.

In terms of spray...I found the center cockpit boats actually more susceptable as you were way closer to the bow. On a 40 ft CC you are 22 feet from the bow as opposed to 38ft on and aft cockpit. In additon the windage that a fully protected center cockpit cabin has has is far greater than a streamline aft cockpit presents. Its also easier to see the mainsail shape/ masthead on an aft cockit boat both with dodgers. On the CC you are almost blind to the main unless you stick your head out the back from under the dodger. Also you tend to have greater difficulty seeing under the jib on a CC leaving you with a much larger blind spot on your bow quarter. I found this somewhat disconcerting when approaching crab pot infesteed areas on the Chesapeake close hauled. It was difficult seeing behind the jib. This decreased visability under way may be what eventually decides it for me. Using a jib with a high cut clue could allieviate this of course.

Deck room the centercockpit has a greater amount of usable space behand the cockpit which is fun for stoage, hanging out and many options. Aft cockpit however have greater space foward of the dodger area. Aft cockpit boats have easier access to the main sail and boom. Afft cockpit seems easier to egress also. Drainage is better on Aft cockpit in general. Less steps into the salon.

Engine compartments on center cockpits seem to have better acccess except where on the aft cockpits the engines are located below the soles.

For us each boat is different. I love the rear berths of the CC, whether it is worth the tradeoff in other areas I am not sure. My wife and I need a nice berth, walk around may not be what we need. We like the rear platform of the CC. Sea motion seems to be a toss up. Sail plan favors the aft cockpit as does visability under sail.

There is no completely perfect boat and some of the decision on center vs aft depends on personal preferences as well as the type of sailing/ cruising you will do.

Dave
 
  • Like
Reactions: kellysails
#7 ·
Just a comment about the aft island berth. They are great at anchor.

However, underway they as absolutely unusable without lee clothes. My experience comes from a delivery of Hylas 46 from Newport RI to St Barths, via Bermuda and around most of Vancouver Island on a Hunter CC45. I have sailed Nauticat 37 with a large aft island berth; with lee clothes it is great.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Our center line aft cabin berth can actually slide to the lee side, which makes it quite comfortable under way. A great idea I'd never seen before.
As to visibility under way, we sail with a Yankee jib, rather high cut. The boat has a genoa which we have yet to use as there's generally too much wind down this way for the genoa anyway.
We probably sail more than most; just puttering around the West Indies we've put about 2000 miles under our keel in the last 15 months, but even at that, we're still at anchor much more than underway, so the livability of the center cockpit boat is a real plus.
It is really nice to have he separation between the guest quarters forward with their own head and ours aft that the center cockpit design allows. Obviously our 50 footer has a nice size salon, so I can't comment on that aspect of the 40 footers. However, at sea I find myself in the cockpit or trying to catch a few Z's, not hanging out in the salon, mostly.
We do have the passageway galley, which is quite usable at anytime and tack as it's narrow enough to lean on the engine room wall and wedge one securely into where you're working in the galley. We also have a safety strap, but have not used it; we weren't exactly interested in cooking in the 70 knot blow we encountered on our way to Bermuda in 2010.
 
#10 ·
I've wondered about this too, I have a friend who just went from a westerly center cockpit 36 to a Hans Christian 33. He finds that it is roomier, preferring the large central space over the divided one. He and his wife find it far more comfortable, especially underway with less sea sickness, a lot of which could likely be attributed to the hull, but he is certain that the cockpit position also plays a large role.

Perhaps in the larger boats the issues are quite different, at 36 there isn't a whole lot of aft deck, at least on his boat.
I still like the boat, and the layout would really work for me.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk
 
#11 ·
IMHO, center cockpits really don't come into their own until you get up around 50-55 feet... In most boats much smaller than that, the tradeoffs of the result of designing the boat from the inside-out, and around the accommodation plan, are just too glaring, and often represent a significant compromise in the safety and security of the cockpit, and access to the deck...

Not to difficult to imagine what might happen to the occupants of the cockpit/fly bridge on this 50-footer, for example, during a knockdown... or, how much riskier the maneuver from cockpit to the deck in heavy weather would become, compared to doing so from most aft cockpits...



A few other downsides of CC designs that may not have been mentioned so far...

Because they are so often the result of the desire to increase interior volume, virtually all that volume is often dedicated to accommodation space. Those center island queen berths in the aft stateroom often extend right up to the transom, thus sacrificing that precious lazarette/sail locker space for stowage of deck gear that is a traditional feature of aft cockpit boats...

Many CC boats are likely to feature hydraulic steering... For those who might occasionally derive pleasure from taking the helm under sail, the lack of feedback or "feel" from hydraulic steering, is not a good thing...

From the helm of many CC boats, so close to the mast, it can be very difficult to view the jib's telltales... Again, for those who might actually enjoy sailing, not a good thing...

CC boats increase the difficulty, and reduce the effectiveness, of the use of windvane self-steering... A HUGE drawback in an offshore boat under 50-55', IMO...

A matter of personal taste, no doubt - but again, in most boats under 50', the aesthetics of the boat are likely to be seriously challenged by a CC design... Higher freeboard as a rule, then the additonal height of the cockpit and boom, slap on the de rigueur full enclosure/oxygen tent representing the Cherry on Top, many CC boats wind up acquiring that Wedding Cake look... That's simply not my style - adding height to a boat's lines, as opposed to length, rarely results in a good look...

Given a bit more time, I know I can think of several more of my own reasons for favoring an aft to a center cockpit, in the size range the OP is talking about... Now, if we're talking about something like an Oyster 625, that becomes a different conversation, altogether... (grin)
 
#12 ·
A few other downsides of CC designs that may not have been mentioned so far...

Many CC boats are likely to feature hydraulic steering... For those who might occasionally derive pleasure from taking the helm under sail, the lack of feedback or "feel" from hydraulic steering, is not a good thing...

From the helm of many CC boats, so close to the mast, it can be very difficult to view the jib's telltales... Again, for those who might actually enjoy sailing, not a good thing...
These are very good points that I have missed. Also the limit the use of windvane self-steering is a major disadvantage that I don't know if I can compromised
 
#14 ·
In 1988 I sailed a Moody 34 CC in Turkey that really did not have a lot of the disadvantages that Jon mentioned. It had one big down side: while the engine access in the passage way was great, the dipstick was on the other side of the engine. You could not see it.
 
#16 ·
Thank you for your responses and insight, everyone... and for pictures of some very cool looking boats! There are some new ideas for me to process, but it looks like I will remain an aft cockpit guy.

I hope everyone had a merry Christmas and will enjoy an excellent new year!!
 
#17 ·
Great thread. This is very good information for me, since I am in the market for my next boat. I'm currently sailing a Morgan 22. I want something in the 30 - 37 range for weekend coastal sailing. A few times a year I want to go out for a week at a time. Two adults and two kids.

Basically, in a nutshell I want a comfortable family cruiser that will allow us to take along friends for daysails. I want room for everyone to sit, so a tiny little cockpit is not something I'm after.

This thread has got me looking at center cockpits for the first time. Since this boat will be a toy, not my home, my budget for it is going to keep me in older production boats.

Feedback?
 
#18 ·
In the 30-37 range for what you've in mind it's pretty hard to beat the Catalina 34/36.. a wide range of price availability depending on year, essentially the same boats regardless of your budget. Good, roomy cockpits and plenty of room for 2 and 2, plus even the possibility of bringing friends for the 2 kids (always a good plan if you have space)
 
  • Like
Reactions: jackdale
#20 ·
Thanks for the reply, Faster.

The Catalina 34/36 look perfect. Just wondering if a center cockpit is something that is enjoyable for easy sailing or rather something to be avoided. Browing yacht world turned up a slew of center cockpits like the Oday CC model that look really nice. Also ran across an S2 9.1 center cockpit. But with no firsthand experience with CC models I don't know if something like that would be a poor fit.
 
#21 ·
Jon, we have a Monitor vane with a center cockpit Bristol 45.5 and it works fine. The only problem is that you have two sets of light lines (steering and control) crossing the aft deck. I agree with your point about loss of storage. We have an incredible amount of storage for small and mid size items but really need a dedicated sail locker. The aft shower plays that role.
 
#23 ·
That's good to hear... My thought was that so many CCs have hydraulic steering, it's a problem. Sailomat, for one, suggests their vane will not work with hydraulic systems without considerable modification...

Many CC boats I see, the control lines could not be run nearly as directly as they can to an aft cockpit... As soon as you begin to add friction to the system, or introduce more stretch to the control lines by lengthening them, you're likely to degrade the effectiveness of most vanes. That's certainly the case with my Sailomat, especially in lighter airs...

If I was using a vane on a CC boat, I'd think about trying to run it to the emergency tiller, instead... Depending on what the particular setup is, that might be a better way to go on some boats...

In the latest CRUISING WORLD, the Clarkes on OSPREY list their vane as one of their favorite pieces of gear... Yet, given the amount of gear the pic of the boat shows dangling from the stern arch, I can't imagine how well it would work whenever the apparent wind came forward of the beam, with the air vane in the shadow/disturbed air of such a massive structure...
 
#25 ·
Interesting to me is how much of the sailing fraternity will not put to sea without a GPS, state of the art chart plotter, AIS, HD radar, Iridium phone, the list goes on.

And yet there appears to be a preference to antiquated wind vane steering systems that (generally speaking) require control lines to circumnavigate the boat and end up cluttering the space that you spend most of your time in.

I have long since converted to an autopilot that not only holds a better course either on the wind or off, doesn't take you off course when you're running off the wind (predominant cruising condition) and the wind shifts, uses almost no electricity (a modest solar array easily replaces anything the autopilot uses).

In the bad old days before fancy electronics, I sailed with an Aries windvane which in it's day was considered one of the best. Downwind sailing was a nightmare with crash gybes the order of the day. The "average" course it steered may have been brilliant in the days of bows and arrows but today?

I wouldn't replace my auto pilot with the world's best windvane even if I got it for free with a lifetime free maintenance contract. As always, just a personal choice.

Sorry, a little off topic but relevant nontheless.

As far a CC goes, I have a Morgan 44 CC. All the ups and downs have been discussed above and they're all true to some extent. I will live with all the downs to continue enjoying the ups.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chef2sail
#26 ·
Interesting to me is how much of the sailing fraternity will not put to sea without a GPS, state of the art chart plotter, AIS, HD radar, Iridium phone, the list goes on.

And yet there appears to be a preference to antiquated wind vane steering systems that (generally speaking) require control lines to circumnavigate the boat and end up cluttering the space that you spend most of your time in.

I have long since converted to an autopilot that not only holds a better course either on the wind or off, doesn't take you off course when you're running off the wind (predominant cruising condition) and the wind shifts, uses almost no electricity (a modest solar array easily replaces anything the autopilot uses).

In the bad old days before fancy electronics, I sailed with an Aries windvane which in it's day was considered one of the best. Downwind sailing was a nightmare with crash gybes the order of the day. The "average" course it steered may have been brilliant in the days of bows and arrows but today?

I wouldn't replace my auto pilot with the world's best windvane even if I got it for free with a lifetime free maintenance contract. As always, just a personal choice.

...
Yes, I agree. Also the autopilots have improved incredibly on the last 10 years with all the fed back and development provided by their extended use on offshore long distance solo races where the boats are most of the time in autopilot even in extreme weather.

A top of the range autopilot is also a great improvement in safety. Modern boats facing bad weather work better sailing and a modern autopilot with adequate storm sails can keep a boat on track on the best course to sail the storm allowing the crew to rest.

Regards

Paulo
 
#28 ·
Hey Jon

With an Aries anything from the aft quarter forward was OK even if the boat did sort of waddle down a course - I think all windvanes have a waddle factor as standard. The Aries was only a nightmare when running because it would waddle enough to cause an unplanned gybe.

To be sure, in the days of sextants and RDF coastal navigation, the windvane was a powerful tool for voyagers but there appears still to be a contingent of voyagers who swear by their windvanes and I don't quite get that. Autopilots are really not that costly.

Sorry again, we're really hijacking this thread now.
 
#29 ·
Wow, you guys certainly do make this sailing stuff complicated. All I ask is a bag of sandwiches and a cooler full of drinks.

That said, a bag of sandwiches and a cooler full of drinks were greatly improved upon with the purchase of my Tiller Tamer. Now I can actually retrieve one of those sandwiches!

While you guys debate the latest million dollar yachts, I'm sitting on square life preservers for cushions and wishing I had a roller furler. ha!

And sailing is still the best thing I've ever done.


You guys are the best. I really do enjoy reading these threads. The amount of knowledge you all have is incredible and I'm constantly grateful to be able to learn from it.
 
#30 ·
The Hylas brand executes center cockpit as a religion. Look at Norseman 447 also if you like the U-shaped galley. Center cockpit designs seem more suitable to me when you have a steady diet of >2 people on the boat. There is a pretty good video of the Hylas 46 on youtube - Fetching Light. I was intrigued by the discussion of the hard lexan dodger they created.
 
#32 ·
The older Amel, that were smaller boats than today were very particular center cockpit boats:



Most that don't like CC boats are referring to small center cockpit boats where the compromises regarding having that implies a high freeboard and sailors siting on top of the boat, not inside the boat. Amel older smaller boats where CC but sailors were low, well inside the boat and non on top of it.

Regards

Paulo
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top