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What engine do I need?

6K views 39 replies 23 participants last post by  tommays 
#1 ·
I am in process of purchasing a first sailboat. I am looking at various makes/models in the 27-30' range. I have seen several Catalinas, Cals, S2, and Tartan boats. My preference would be something with an inboard small diesel for those days when sailing is not possible due to weather or ICW cruising. I know that some do this via an outboard but I would prefer inboard largely to avoid the porpoise effect of waves bringing the outboard out of the water.

The price range I am looking in has me finding boats with either very worn or very dead inboard diesels of the Universal, Volvo, or Yanmar sort. Wanting something reliable I am now thinking of going the repowering route. That way I use the dead engine argument to get the boat price down and use the savings to get something new or newly rebuilt. Now, I know almost nothing about small marine diesel engines for sailboats. Can someone please advise me? What make/model would you recommend? What is the best way to locate such an engine, and what would I be looking at cost-wise (roughly)? Money is an object. I am hoping to pay just around $4k for the boat. So several thousand dollars in a repower is out of the question. I guess in some ways I am looking for a primer in smaller marine diesels for sailboats in the 27' range.

Thanks in advance.
 
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#2 ·
Where are you looking? If you are in the US, I'm confident that you could find a Catalina 27 in reasonable shape with a running A-4 in the 4-5 thousand dollar range.

A re-power is gonna coast more than you might think. You will have a 10K motor in a 4K boat. Now you have spent 14K on a boat that might be worth 10K on a good day, and the depreciation curve will be steep the first few years. In short time you will have a 6K boat even as you continue to fix and upgrade other stuff.

Save up a little longer and get the vessel you need/want. JMHO/YMMV.
 
#5 ·
rb,

Either you are having extremely bad luck, or your evaluation of engines is a tad off.

Diesels are workhorses, and they are hard to kill. I've seen some really, REALLY ugly engines that you'd swear (based on appearances) are suitable only as a mooring anchor; many of them ran like champs.

I'm currently tearing down and rebuilding my Perkins 4.108. She looked like death warmed over before I started, but that same engine faithfully took us all the way around on America's Great Loop needing nothing more than regular oil changes.
 
#6 ·
At what you want to spend you won't be able to repower, and if you did it wouldn't be worth it unless you keep the boat for a very long time. May want to reconsider an outboard. In a well with a long shaft you may avoid the porposing you refer to. They're a lot easier to pu;l and fix up in your garage and in a reasonable size will have the power for a boat in the size you're looking at. You can always keep the engine if you sell the boat.
 
#7 ·
I agree with others who have suggested paying a bit more for a boat that has a good engine. If the engine is beat there's probably a good chance that the rest of the boat is too, and then you're looking at even more repair work. A diesel should last a long time if it's well maintained and if you're looking at older boats the engine may already have been rebuilt or replaced. I think your approach is just limiting your own options.
 
#9 ·
Hey,

Welcome to Sailnet.

IMHO, for a cheap boat, it doesn't make any financial sense to put a lot of money into a cheap boat. And, if you have to pay someone to do the work, there is no way to do it economically. Either spend a little more upfront and get something with a decent engine (best choice) or put a real cheap outboard on the stern and make the best of it.

Barry
 
#10 ·
Do not touch any sailboat with an old Volvo in it.
You will get absolutely savaged for the cost of spare parts.
Indeed I would never touch a Volvo, old or new.
The Volvo sticker price is competitive when you buy a new motor. It has to be or no-one will buy them. Later, you find out that Volvo have got their teeth into you.

In 1998, they wanted £1300 (close to $2000) for an exhaust manifold for what was then a 20 year old motor.
The equivalent part for a Lister-Petter was £180.... yes folks, that's 1/7 of what Volvo wanted.
Volvo argued that 20 years was " old" (so much for longevity of Volvos).
The motors are strong enough, but you cannot build any meaningful relationship with a manufacturer like Volvo, nor would you wish to.
My next motor will be a Kubota.
.
 
#11 ·
Thanks all. Sounds like I need to be more patient or increase budget. Another angle might be a rebuild of something. Any ideas of cost range for rebuild of say a Universal circa 1972? What would I be looking at cheapest to most expensive? Thnx.
 
#12 ·
Unfortunately, you are learning the realities of buying an inexpensive boat. Anything significant is wrong and the boat is instantly worth less than zero. That's why so many are abandon.

To rebuild, you will first have to pay to have the motor picked out of the boat and then placed back later. From the sounds of your budget, that might be all you have. If you have all the tools to do a rebuild yourself, that might not be very expensive, but you never know if you're going to need to replace something expensive. The part may have run for another 5 years, but you can't skip it now that you have the bloody thing on the bench.

Buy a boat with a good motor. While it might be a few more bucks than the $4k you budgeted, it will be less overall compared to repowering, rebuilding, etc.

Why so focused on the iron genny? You want to be sure you get a good set of sails, the standing rigging is solid, no core penetration, etc. Any of these would cost you the price of your new boat as well.
 
#13 ·
You are looking at a huge bill if you need a rebuild and can't do it yourself. A new engine installed could cost you up to 10k.

A friend of mine had new yanmar installed on her Catalina 27 and it was around 10k if I remember correct.

Get one with a good serviceable motor hopefully with some documentation to prove the service. Also sea trial it and run it hard. The guy says it'll run and all it needs is x or y, then why didn't he just fix it?

If your motor dies and needs rebuilt or replaced, strongly consider a new or used outboard on the size of boats you are considering. You'll never come close to recovering the costs involved in the new inboard....not that it really matters anyway though. A 4k boat will cost you 4k a year to moor, insure, upgrade, fix.

There are good ones with 25" shafts that will have plenty of bite, are quiet, and easy on fuel. Way easier to maintain and much cheaper.

I bought an 85' Cal 27 with a rebuilt Yanmar 1gm. I have the old rebuild bill in the folder from the previous owner...it hurts to look at...so I do a lot of preventative maintenence, impellors, zincs, replace oil lines if they get a little rusty, fuel filters, use good clean fuel, replace the alternator belt to make sure I know how to do it, rebuild water pump...stuff like that. It has been super reliable, never given me any complaints, and I have gotten a lot of hours on it so far. I knock on the tiller every time I get on the boat. I think that helps too,
 
#15 ·
Why are engine replacements so expensive..? $10,000 for a motor that is oarge enough to power a 27-30ft is just plain crazy. It seems to me that they should be available for $2,500-$4,000....I mean there are so many abandon boats, etc that someone could get in the business of buying engines up, rebuilding them and selling them.

is it the fact that saltwater is so hard on metal and older engines are just corroded/useless beyond repair..?
 
#16 · (Edited)
By far the cheapest way to get yourself into a re-powered boat is to pay a premium for a boat with a new engine already in it. The seller will have to eat probably half the $10K cost, so you get the engine for only $5K, a real bargain.

Assuming you are talking a small engine (10-14HP), while you might be able to find a new/rebuilt engine for $4000, getting it into the boat will cost $5000, some for the expert labor, some of the replacement costs of most of the stuff around the engine, hoses, cables, filter, alternator, starter, etc. If a new engine is going in, it only makes sense to replace everything else which periodically wears out, its much cheaper to do as part of the install. also a good time to re-consider the fuel tank and maybe the hotwater tank, depending where its located. So a $4000 engine sitting in a showroom, quickly becomes $10000 installed in a boat.

My experience with the rebuild of a 35HP Westerbeke, which included all of the above, ran $20,000.
 
#25 ·
I have pondered this issue. There is a huge difference between a 25' and 27' boat. Being 6'2" I have found the 25s to be cramped inside. That and I have a large family here in Charleston who will all want to go for rides make me think larger rather than smaller.
 
#26 ·
For getting in and out of slip I would too. But I am looking at the iCW here and thinking a 9.9 pushing 8000lbs at what (?) 5 knots all day may not be the way to go. I even have a marina owning brother who will send me a fresh 9.9 for free. All I have to do is ask. That one is tempting -low ball the boat, get the free OB, hang it and done. But I fear the ability of a 9.9 to push the 8000lb boat with much authority given Charleston tides/currents...
 
#22 ·
It's a sailboat. One way to get a nice boat cheaply is to buy one with a bad engine, remove it, and don't put a new one back in. You can make a sculling oar and row or sail in and out of your slip. A friend does exactly this with his Yankee 30.

It also saves you a lot of money on folding/feathering props and other hassles.
 
#27 ·
Thanks all. The search goes on. Hoping that 27' sailboat with decent sails in need of TLC but healthy inboard diesel, wheeled steering, and roller furling comes along at my budget somewhere in the southeast...
 
#28 ·




A big mess and complete lack of maintenance is common in the low price range ;)



Going from this




To that takes some time :D





In getting ready for my third season i have no regrets as i have exactly what we wanted at a price WE feel good about BUT it was and epic undertaking :eek:

The question is WHAT do you really want :confused:
 
#29 ·
It's true that most 27' boats have greater headroom than most 25' boats, although there are some exceptions. It's rare to find 6'2" of headroom in either. However the larger boats rarely have larger cockpits, so taking out big groups isn't that much easier with them. I recently upgraded from 25' boat (Catalina 25) to a ~29' boat (Pearson 28-2) and the cockpit is the same size or slightly smaller. The interior is much larger though and headroom went from 5'6"ish to around 6'.

On the other hand the Pearson is a lot more expensive to maintain. The Catalina was at the upper end of having a mast could be dropped without a crane and a boat that could be run on an outboard. Systems were more basic (meaning easier to service and replace) on the Catalina that we had. An inboard engine adds a lot of complexity compared to an outboard: it isn't just moving the motor, it means adding a fuel system, second battery system, and more through-hulls for cooling.

Having owned both it is a lot easier for me to understand why a well maintained ~25' boat goes for $5-10k and a well maintained ~30' boat goes for $15-$30k (at least around Seattle). 27/28' boats can go either way depending on their design.

If budget were an issue and I just wanted to go sailing primarily on day trips I'd start smaller and simpler. The sailing is just as fun, they are cheaper to buy and operate, and easier to sell if you do decide to upgrade later. If you'll be spending a lot of time onboard (and thus wanting the space) then a larger boat is nice, but I think it'll take you some luck and good hunting to find a $5k-ish 27-30' boat that is ready to go. I know they are out there, they just aren't that common.
 
#30 ·
A friend of mine bought a Bayfield 25 with a grease covered partially disassembled 1 lung yanny in it that had not been run for 6 years.

It took 8 hours of cleaning and cussing over to get her started, and another 8 or so to get the transmission unstuck.

Those old worn engines are still engines. If it runs and has compression, it works and can be made to keep working.
 
#31 ·
FWIW, If you are looking to keep costs low. I have seen 2 heavy fully keeled boats be moved along quite nicely by 6 hp outboards, Bristol 27 and Pearson Trition outfited for cruising. This may not be the ideal setup but it sure keeps lots of bucks in your pocket for other things, and keeps an older boat needing repowering more attractive.

I am lucky that my A4 had just had a fresh Moyer rebuild with all the upgrades when I purchased her, but if I have to repower it will be with an outboard unless I find a killer deal on a Beta 14 or 16....which I highly doubt will happen.
 
#33 ·
Not everyone wants to be the Pardeys or James Baldwin. Most of us want motors of some kind on our boat and maybe even an oar or two for backup.

Many of us get along fine with old Atomic 4 powered boats. One of the big reasons that this engine is still around is the average asking price and size range for sailboat X with a diesel rather than an Atomic 4 is about $10K. A4 powered boats are cheaper as most people want diesel fueled engines rather than gasoline.

Tommays and Cruiser2B both put rebuilt engines in their older boats. My Tartan 27' has its original A4 engine and both are 45 years old and still hanging in there. I've had to learn how to be my own engine mechanic but that has been well worth it in many ways.
 
#35 ·
Not everyone wants to be the Pardeys or James Baldwin. Most of us want motors of some kind on our boat and maybe even an oar or two for backup.

Many of us get along fine with old Atomic 4 powered boats. One of the big reasons that this engine is still around is the average asking price and size range for sailboat X with a diesel rather than an Atomic 4 is about $10K. A4 powered boats are cheaper as most people want diesel fueled engines rather than gasoline.

Tommays and Cruiser2B both put rebuilt engines in their older boats. My Tartan 27' has its original A4 engine and both are 45 years old and still hanging in there. I've had to learn how to be my own engine mechanic but that has been well worth it in many ways.
Oh I have no problem with an Atomic 4, I have a 1966 Triton with an A4 myself. Just pointing out that on a boat under 30' an outboard is certainly a viable alternative. You also get better steerage in reverse (helpful going in and out of a slip) and you don't have to worry about gasoline fumes in the bilge.

When I bought my Triton I was pretty set on having an inboard, but if I was doing that over again I would definitely consider an outboard on a boat that size.
 
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