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  #11  
Old 01-04-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

You're wrong if you're trying to win the America's Cup. If you're not in a very serious race, you're right.

Frankly, pointing ability is one of the most important factors in a boat to me, but that's because I love to beat upwind. I'd rather sail upwind than any other point of sailing, but that's purely personal preference. I just love the feel of a boat driving efficiently upwind.
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Even in benign coastal cruising, there are times pointing a decent ability to point can be really nice. On a charter cat I spent a ton of time slowly tacking through a passage wide enough to sail through but narrow enough to channel the wind. She tacked through about 135 degrees, so to figure out where you were going next you basically did a shoulder check like changing lanes in a car. If we hadn't pushed each tack as close to land as we could, I think I'd still be there.

My beach cat does much better than that but it also makes much better speed and accelerates a lot faster on the new tack, so we can get closer to the true wind.

Neither cat comes near any monohull keelboat I've been on for pointing ability.
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Delta,

It all depends on your objectives. I sailed on a boat that had a million dollars a year budget. The entire point for the owner was to win at any cost, so we did things on that boat that I would dream of on a cruising boat. I can't say the plan was wrong, it was just different.

For instance to jibe the spinnaker we disconnected the forestay then reattached it on the other side of the pole. It cost the boat a new mast every two years or so, but also allowed us to use a 65' spinnaker pole on a 70' boat. Average cost per year $100,000.

We tossed sails regularly as they 'wore out' (this meant more than 7 days sailing on them). Average cost per year $150,000.

We had three different keels that were swapped depending on the water depth the boat was sailing in. From the 17' deep off shore keel, to the 12' inshore keel. No idea what this cost.

All new lines at least once per year

New PBO rigging every year

Was this budget crazy? Maybe a little, but the owner had the money, and loved the game of it. So as long as we won, it didn't matter what we spent.
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Old 01-05-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

There's a big difference in pointing ability between different designs. Knowing what your boat's best point of sail is makes it possible to figure the most efficient way to get from point A to point B when you are plotting a cruising route. Not only in racing over short distances, but over a long distance it can make a big difference. Looking at the polars for a particular design is helpful and can actually be plugged into some plotter software to calculate best headings.
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Old 01-05-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Thanx for the education, fellas. I am slowly absorbing a lot of facts, data and lore. The engineering I leave to others
My two lines; while not mutually exclusive, were not mean to be taken as chiding the racing crowd. Simply an recalled observation and notation of my own desires.

Mine is strictly a limited budget production. I don't envy those with deeper pockets or sumptious tastes in boats. I simply find it curious that the "racing" aspect of boats is usually presented; even in cruising threads. Granted...some *do* enjoy racing cruisers. Hell ! I usta drag race a Datsun pick-up! Run with whatcha brung!

Would that there were such finite specs and formulae for cruising hulls. I suppose such subjectives as comfort and space/style are harder to quantify with specific data points and calculations? But why re-invent the wheel? Existing terms and recognized calc results are the language of all boats. Guess I'll need to learn ta read and comprehend more

Thanx,
Paul
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Old 01-05-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Here in the Windwards, it seems one is ALWAYS beating. After the summer sitting in Grenada (to avoid hurricanes) in SE winds, just as everybody is beginning to sail north the winds shift to NE; slog, slog, slog. As one heads south for Grenada, the winds turn SE and it's slog, slog, slog once again. What can one do?
But the reality of all this in relation to pointing ability is more governed by sea conditions and current than a vessel's windward ability, I believe.
We all try not to end up far off the island we are heading for and have to motor up in the windless lee. Generally, the current is westward even when, following Don Street's theories, it should not be. Anyway, with the westwerly set of the current and adding seas of 4 to 8 feet (short, steep ones at that) that have a bit of fetch, (like the whole Atlantic Ocean) then squeezed between a couple of islands, I think we all are going to point about the same. Boat speed will vary, of course, but unless you are sailing something over 70 feet, Neptune will have more to say about your pointing ability than your boat's designer, down here.
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Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Delta,

It all depends on your objectives. I sailed on a boat that had a million dollars a year budget. The entire point for the owner was to win at any cost, so we did things on that boat that I would dream of on a cruising boat. I can't say the plan was wrong, it was just different.

For instance to jibe the spinnaker we disconnected the forestay then reattached it on the other side of the pole. It cost the boat a new mast every two years or so, but also allowed us to use a 65' spinnaker pole on a 70' boat. Average cost per year $100,000.

We tossed sails regularly as they 'wore out' (this meant more than 7 days sailing on them). Average cost per year $150,000.

We had three different keels that were swapped depending on the water depth the boat was sailing in. From the 17' deep off shore keel, to the 12' inshore keel. No idea what this cost.

All new lines at least once per year

New PBO rigging every year

Was this budget crazy? Maybe a little, but the owner had the money, and loved the game of it. So as long as we won, it didn't matter what we spent.
What boat? Name? Model?
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Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

On what regards coastal cruisers most just turn on the engine when they have to go dead upwind and when there is waves they let the main on and motorsail for a better wind angle.

There are very few that really like to beat against the wind. Its is slow, even if you go fast and many times uncomfortable and that's why most modern production cruisers are not optimized upwind sailing boats. The large majority of cruisers are coastal cruisers.

Even among production cruisers you can have remarkable differences and on the same model the depth of the keel is an important factor. The same boat with a 1.70m keel and with a 2.25m keel will go very differently against the wind. The quality of the sails and its condition is also important.

some have already given practical examples: ZZ4GTA had already gave an example of an extremely good pointing boat, the America cup monohulls, withapparent angles of 20º and and Actual tacking angles of 60º.

As Mark said on typical modern cruising boat the angles are most of the time around 110 degrees. A good one can do 100º and only a performance cruiser with very good pointing ability will make about 90º. There are many boats that will make more than 110º

Regarding cruising the difference of a boat capable of making around 90º and one capable of making 110º is a huge one, providing one really sails and don't just use the engine

The angles a boat can make will depend on the wind (more wind, closer you can get, till a point) and on the wave and sea condition. To get an idea you can get a look at an ORCI file. Here you have one of a very good performance cruiser, the First 40. These numbers are with optimal conditions, no waves, excellent sails and a very well sailed boat. These perfect speeds are very difficult to reach by a cruiser in normal conditions even if one can get close.

http://vtr.com/vtroceanico/images/CH...ura_Sangre.PDF

You can see that they point to each wind speed the best beat angle (true wind) that can go from 44º with 6K wind to 36.6º with 16K wind.

A Benetau Oceanis 393 (1.93 draft), in perfect conditions with racing sails can go from 46.5º with 6K wind till 40.6º with 16K wind.

http://www.cvpa.es/files/rating_banff_2012.pdf

That does not seem much but the First is more narrow, will knife better through the waves and in reality the results with be farther apart than the ones that consider flat water, specially in what concerns medium and high winds (bigger waves).

Also, even in flat water the speeds made good (the real speed considering a straight line against the wind and not the speed the boat is making over the water against the wind) are very different. With 6K wind The Benetau Oceanis 93 will be making 2.98K and the First 40 3.69K. With 16K wind the Oceanis is making 4.98K and the First 5.81.

As I have said that is in ideal conditions that we rarely find in reality (no waves) and as I have said with waves we will have a bigger difference in what regards to sail with 16K because there are normally waves with 16K wind.

Anyway that means that dead upwind in perfect conditions the Oceanis 393 will make with 6K wind 71.5nm in 24 hours and the First 40 88.6. With 16k wind and flat water the Oceanis will make 119.5nm and the First 139.2.

The Oceanis 393 is a well designed modern boat and even if there are some old boats that can have a better performance (specially with 16k wind) many will have a worse performance and in some the difference will be as big or bigger than the difference between the Oceanis and the First.

So you can get a idea about the subject in what concerns different boat performances upwind.


....
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Last edited by PCP; 01-06-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith10 View Post
You're wrong if you're trying to win the America's Cup. If you're not in a very serious race, you're right.

Frankly, pointing ability is one of the most important factors in a boat to me, but that's because I love to beat upwind. I'd rather sail upwind than any other point of sailing, but that's purely personal preference. I just love the feel of a boat driving efficiently upwind.
Thank you to all who have replied. I had no idea! I had thought that, among "normal" boats, pointing was more a matter of sailor skill than rig and design. Apparently, some boats do if fact point better than others.

If that is true, then what are some of the better pointing boats? The Star, Beneteau First, and Etchells were mentioned above. For boats < 30 ft. LOA, can you think of some other boats that are known for being fast to windward? I, too, enjoy beating to windward (and unless I use the motor, I have to in order to get out of my harbor.)

Thanks again, Richard
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Old 01-06-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Regarding American boats, J boats in general, specially the more sportive ones, the new C&C 101 for instance. As someone has said : look for performance cruisers, even older ones, with a fin keel, big draft, big B/D ratio and relatively narrow boats. Some older long keelers, narrow ones and well designed, can also be quite good. Generally most cruisers that are successful club racers, even old ones, are good upwind boats.
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