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post #31 of 62 Old 01-11-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Beating to windward

Thank you all very much. This has turned out to be more complex than I suspected.

Can anyone comment on the Star (Olympic class) or Lightning cb sloop? I live in southern California and sail in the ocean. How do these do in ocean coastal waters? The Star is supposed to point well to windward. I don't know about the lightning.

Any comments?

Richard
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post #32 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

The Star is not a boat that many would choose for 'daysailing' - it's a race boat pure and simple with quite rigorous demands on the crew. The go to weather well but have far too complex rig and sail controls for the casual sailor, and the crew spends most of his time hiking with everything above the knee hanging over the side...The Lightning is a more conventional daysailer but they too can be tech'd/tricked out somewhat. Neither would likely be considered a good open water boat.
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post #33 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

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Originally Posted by rlltrash View Post
Thank you all very much. This has turned out to be more complex than I suspected.

Can anyone comment on the Star (Olympic class) or Lightning cb sloop? I live in southern California and sail in the ocean. How do these do in ocean coastal waters? The Star is supposed to point well to windward. I don't know about the lightning.

Any comments?

Richard
I owned a couple of Lightnings. They are only good for relatively flat conditions and will pound in any kind of sea. If you want to "daysail" in any sort of waves, they would not be a good choice. A Lightning has almost a flat bottom and a hard chine. What you need for a more comfortable ride is a boat with a rounder chine and deeper bottom. ODay makes some nice little boats that might fit the bill. The Star is a great sailboat but is getting into the purely-for-racing category. It would be more difficult to trailer and is also not meant to be in any kind of sea conditions.

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post #34 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

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What boat? Name? Model?
It was a two boat program. An Andrews 70, and a Santa Cruis 52 both named Decision. The same program just won the Onion Patch in 2012.

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post #35 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

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It depends on the boat's use.

Most racing today is done on short windward-leeward, round-the-buoys courses which emphasize tactics, crew work and boat handling skills, so the shortest course is almost directly upwind half the distance and almost directly downwind half the other distance. Upwind ability is very important since velocity made good upwind will determine how the fleet places on half the distance of the course. Now that racing boats can plane downwind and achieve much greater speed downwind than upwind, however, a fast downwind boat can still overcome a slight disadvantage upwind.

Upwind ability is less important while cruising. Some cruising sailors eschew upwind sailing completely, "Gentlemen don't sail to weather", and will inevitably motor to windward in almost all conditions. If you cruise any significant amount, it is not unusual to go out on a perfect sailing day and see perfectly capable (and usually expensive) boats motoring upwind instead of sailing. (These are the same boats you see running dead downwind with the boom trimmed to the centerline of the boat and the roller-furling jib on the wrong side.) To these sailors, beating upwind is too uncomfortable, difficult, frustrating and slow. Beating upwind requires skill, perseverence, heeling, spray, pounding, trimming in the headsail, scary noises, and attendant discomfort. It is difficult to hold your cocktail upright and maintain a calm demeanor for your guests with your ascot perfectly tied while your boat is pounding into the waves at a 30 degree angle. Plus, your wife may not sleep with you for at least a week if you persist. Nevertheless, on a given desirable cruising course heading with wind from no predominant direction, if you care to sail, you will end up going to weather at least 1/4 of the time (= 90/360 degrees) and downwind 1/4 of the time. So, you will effectively spend half your time beating or running downwind.

Running downwind can be equally scary. Some sailors have balls and some don't. Those without should probably just give up, spare us all the embarrassment, and buy a trawler.

Almost all boats sail well while reaching. The greatest speed differences are achieved upwind or downwind.
I am a bit mystified by those who don't like to go to wind. It is definitely my favorite point of sail. My boat, like other S&S boats of its era, was designed to go to wind and when she settles into a groove, it is thrilling. But I can recall it wasn't quite as much fun when I had a much more tender boat that didn't point as high. And as to the original post, yes, pointing ability makes a big difference, racing or otherwise.
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post #36 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

CBinRI i'm with you, I love to go to weather. But let me tell you why some don't ( wife) It is wet with the spray coming back to you, its bumpy, the boat bucks, if the wind is cold it feels colder as you are now going into it with more speed. You feel like the boat is being pushed up hill, pitching ect. Why she likes off wind sailing more, it feels like you are being pulled to your destination less bucking/pitching it is less windy, more dry. So I can see it both ways. Maybe gentleman just don't like the feeling and us dogs revel in it. Who knows...

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Re: Beating to windward

Different strokes etc.... my wife would rather beat in 20+ knots than run downwind in 15... Which is OK, but unusual. It takes a while to talk her into flying the spinnaker, and once it's up after 7.0 knots we don't jibe, but she much prefers beating to windward.

Ron

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Re: Beating to windward

My old boat, 50 year old design, a centerboard yawl, doesn't point very high. I knew that from reading long ago. And I have a friend with a J35. If we're sailing to windward together, he points higher

A couple years back with my college aged son and daughter as crew, we took our boat across the Gulf of Maine overnight(something we've done several times). This time, instead of just powering into the southerly breeze, I offered," Instead of motoring for 24 hours, what do you say we allow ourselves 36 or so, and just sail?" "Sure", all around. They love to sail rather than motor anytime.

Our forecast was south winds, our course,...south. To make a long story short(I appologize to anyone who's heard the long story), we made 3 tacks. Starboard, port, starboard. At times, we seemed so wide of a logical course, I didn't figure we'd finish under sail.

We used our WP for all the steering. Conditions ranged from 5kts on the nose, building to near 20 on the nose for the final tack, and a lot of water on the decks(we stayed dry and warm below or behind the dodger and spent little time behind the wheel).

We never attempted to point as high as the boat would allow, instead falling off to keep the boat on her feet, make it easy for the WP to steer(it did the whole way), and make it easy on us as far as how the boat handled the waves(my daughter, like her mom is prone to seasickness unless you make the boat sail, so they don't get sick;it can be done usually).

Leaving from Tenants Harbor area, we arrived at the Cape Cod Canal about 32 hours later. If I recall correctly, we covered about 180 nm on those 3 tacks. That was our fastest crossing, and most have been made under power on the shorter rhumb line.

I remember our tacking angle on the chartplotter, it was pretty pathetic. It was an amazing trip though, and our old boat goes to weather. I took this shot on the port tack into the setting sun that night
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post #39 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

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Plus, your wife may not sleep with you for at least a week if you persist.
OTOH, some BFS runs are better than sex.

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post #40 of 62 Old 01-11-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

pointing is overrated. bashing into seas and winds sukks and is most uncomfortable, not to mention hard work.
gentlemen NEVER sail to weather.


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