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  #51  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

head winds is why gods made tacking in weather. is totally unnecessary to try to push a boat into a wind--wind is what fills sails--when heading into it, there is none with which to fill sails. try a bash for 400 miles then say how much fun it is, especially with weather helm on a fin/spade sloop.....have fun.
as for sailcruising sans sails-- many many seem to be into this weird activity. must have unlimited funding....
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  #52  
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Re: Beating to windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
head winds is why gods made tacking in weather. is totally unnecessary to try to push a boat into a wind--wind is what fills sails--when heading into it, there is none with which to fill sails. try a bash for 400 miles then say how much fun it is, especially with weather helm on a fin/spade sloop.....have fun.
as for sailcruising sans sails-- many many seem to be into this weird activity. must have unlimited funding....
Well, for some of us, it sometimes IS necessary to sail to weather...

If we actually want to GO places, that is, and might not have all the time in the world to do so...
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  #53  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

i have had to make 2 tacks on a 400 mile passage from la cruz e huanacaxtle, nayarit , mexico to zihuatenejo, guerrero mexico. is all downhill and some weather comes from south, then clocks around to nw. this is a good coast to cruise for easy boat handling. even with this feature here, many use no sails in their sail cruising.
before i got to la cruz, i didnt have to tack at all. was all down wind and down hill. easy sailing. slightly rolly.
as i life fro a cruising, i dont sail to schedules and can do what i wish to accomplish without having to sail into wind.
even in gulf of mexico we didnt NEED to sail into weather but we did, as boat owner liked sailing the magenta line .... i removed that magenta line from my garmin.....
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  #54  
Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Somewhere above there were comments about sheeting angle of the jib/genoa and inside or outside of the shrouds. On the Trailer Sailor forum I found this entry:

“Oh, I thought you were going to make a commnet about the location of Rod's jib car in the photo.

What is the magic number? 11 degrees my friends. 11 degrees off the center line when you draw an imaginary line from the tack to the clew of the head sail in medium air.

And, yes, you can rationalize 'that number is not correct for 'my' boat, in 'my' wind.' But I prefer to take the advice of Dennis Conners. . . .”
Bob K. Pursuit, 1/4/13

Does that 11 degree sheeting angle ring a bell with anyone? Is that the optimal sheeting angle of the jib when close hauled? Maybe that is why my 20+ degree sheeting angle on the genoa (outside of the shrouds) doesn’t get me to windward very fast. Is there also an optimal angle for the mainsail? Where can I get more information on this?

Thanks for all the great replies.

Richard
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Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

11 degrees sounds reasonable to me.. not all boats can achieve that with interference from shrouds, track/car locations, etc. Others can go closer to center than that.. but may not benefit fully due to the various factors already discussed.

As far as the main is concerned, often the optimum angle is determined by its proximity to the headsail otherwise excessive backwinding can result - although on many boats some backwinding isn't necessarily 'slow'. We generally choose our 'boom angle' based on the wind strength and heeling angle. This is where a good vang, and an easily adjusted mainsheet and traveler come into play.
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Re: Beating to windward

I can't say that I have ever measured the sheeting angle. on most race boats I have raced on that have overlapping headsails the sail will be within a couple of inches of the spreader and may be even touching the shrouds at the foot. If you have a non-overlapping head sail then you definitely want the ability to sheet inside the shrouds. You do want to be careful not to "choke the slot" between the jib and main by sheeting in too tight. On a fractional rigged boat with a jib, the main is doing most of the work and the jib is secondary so you don't want to backwind the main much.
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Re: Beating to windward

Hi Faster- How do you judge the "slot". When do you judge time to reef v. time to flatten the main v. time to just foot a little. What parameters do you use to judge how much twist put in? Always end up tweaking lines/halyard tension/travelor/outhaul etc.. Never totally happy with the main going up wind. Read the books.Watch what other folks do when crewing. find there are so many choices going up wind.Tweak- look a sog/vmg tweak some more.do others have the same addiction? drives the wife crazy "just sit already" lol
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  #58  
Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
i see many sailing boats motoring instead of sailing--i do not understand how folks can actually say they SAILED from one place to another--i motor sail, much of the time, but, puleeeze...is a lot more comfortable not trying to emulate a 747....

btw--i do not sail up wind nor up hill. i sail with the seas and winds usually, here on west coast. the trick--never sail north. north is a no no--uncomfortable and bashing type of travel--nasty.

seems no one tacks anymore???? why not just buy a motor boat and cruise on that....
Well if you are just playing around with the boat you can chose never go against the wind but if you are cruising and want to go from point A to B and if they are at a considerable distance (some thousands of miles), sooner or later you will have head winds. then you can chose to motor, to motor sail or to sail. Sailing, as it was pointed out, is less fast but more comfortable and then pointing ability will make all the difference regarding VMG.

There are only two ways to cruise considerable distances avoiding upwind winds: One is circumnavigating following the trade winds, the other to be totally dependent of seasonal winds, many times months apart.

Regarding being uncomfortable normally boats with a good pointing ability are good sailboats that can sail with light winds and you can make good speed upwind in almost flat water with 6K winds and go at almost hull speed in 8/9K, with very small waves and that is just great fun.

I sail a lo upwind and that's why I have choose a boat with a good pointing ability.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-24-2013 at 09:22 PM.
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Re: Beating to windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Hi Faster- How do you judge the "slot". When do you judge time to reef v. time to flatten the main v. time to just foot a little. What parameters do you use to judge how much twist put in? Always end up tweaking lines/halyard tension/travelor/outhaul etc.. Never totally happy with the main going up wind. Read the books.Watch what other folks do when crewing. find there are so many choices going up wind.Tweak- look a sog/vmg tweak some more.do others have the same addiction? drives the wife crazy "just sit already" lol
Quote:
drives the wife crazy "just sit already" lol
... you been spying on us??

I'm with you there.. to be honest I've always been more of a 'seat of the pants' type sailor than a technical trim/by the numbers guy. We learned to sail, as mentioned above, in a area blessed with strong winds but just a chop and rarely any serious wave action - near perfect training grounds (except for helming in a big sea....) Anyhow we're big believers in traveler usage, and I do tend to pull strings a lot, even now, and we rarely race anymore. The pressure on the helm and the heel angle are our 'dictates'. We'll suffer a fair bit of mainsail backwind if it's not slowing us down, but for a longer leg we'll reef, of course. Much of our sailing is either upwind or down, as the local topography tends to 'steer' the prevailing SE or NW winds along the straits and inlets.

Our boat really likes 'traveler down early' and I often think of when I read Buddy Melges' book where he says the sails need to 'breathe'..

Figuring out how to get a boat upwind makes those trips much more enjoyable than pounding under power into the slop and chop, saves fuel and provides long term gloating rights over those that can't be bothered.
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Last edited by Faster; 01-24-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013
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Re: Beating to windward

I try to trim as best as my ancient sails will allow. My boat is much faster with a little bit of main backwinded, the speed bubble, but then it's a classic big headsail/small main sail plan so a big chunk of the drive is coming from the genoa.
I like to trim fairly constantly, but that's just the style of sailing I do. If we're actually going somewhere (i.e. the Admiral is on board), I'll just trim it about right, tie off the tiller and leave the boat to it.
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