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  #41  
Old 01-07-2013
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Yes.. The SC 50 probably deserves a mention here...
From a production boat standpoint but Merlin really started the big sled phenomenon. 27 knots in the Transpac in the 70's. In the Molokai channel near the end of the race they ran away from a Coast Guard cutter that was sent to escort them.

It's a fairly routine speed for the big boats now but then it was strictly the province of boats like Hobie cats and rarely even for them.

The attached is from '77 - they have virtually sailed it under like an old China Clipper.
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  #42  
Old 01-07-2013
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

Is my take on this wrong, to be paradigm-shifting doesn't the design have to have a profound impact on what follows in sailing? Herreshof's catamaran was quite remarkable, but sailing in the decades that followed was not materially affected by it (perhaps sadly). On the other hand, the Westsail 32 opened the door that allows me to be sitting on my boat in South Africa, even though I have never had any interest in buying one. It shifted the paradigm. The Cal 40 made downwind sailing faster and that is useful, but not all that many boats followed that lead. Perhaps we need more categories of impact?
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  #43  
Old 01-07-2013
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

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Originally Posted by HeartsContent View Post
I'm curious - what?

In it's price range and run, I'm not aware of any faster Than the Macgregor 65. There are faster pure racing boats but not production cruisers.
You have made an absolute statesmen: "also believe the Macgregor 65 is the fastest production monohull to date".

no price range was mentioned and no size was mentioned.

There are many production cruising boats much faster than the Mac Gregor. what makes a production boat is that it is offered by a brand as a model opposed of a one off, an exclusive boat that someone hires directly a NA to make to specifications that are provided by the client, an only and exclusive yacht.

Just posting some brands look at the size of the boats and to their characteristics and you will conclude that there are many small production luxurious cruisers much faster that are the MacGregor 65:

SwanLine models - History, descriptions, techinical details and images

Southern Wind Shipyard

Shipman: Choose a shipman

http://www.comaryachts.it/Default.aspx

X-65

Solaris by Serigi

Wally // Sail

Garcia Yachting

CNB Yachts

ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Mylius Yachts, Barche a vela, Fast Cruiser

MURTICYACHTS - Home

Zeydon

Vismara Vela

Barca a Vela Sly 61

Gieffe Yachts

Aluminum sailboats, boats, and sail yachts for blue water ocean cruising and round the world voyage

::: Kelly Yachts :::

Salona 60 - Salona Yachts

Hanse Yachts

I am not sure if all on this list will be faster than the MacGregor 65 but I have not any doubt that many will be much faster.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-07-2013 at 09:56 AM.
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  #44  
Old 01-07-2013
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

So many great boats in this thread!

Ted Brewer wrote an article on my blog about 50 years of cruising boat evolution that includes a lot of boats that might fit in this thread.

Among those mentioned are Finisterre, the Rhodes designed Bounty II (very early FRP hull), Block Island/Bermuda 40, Alberg's Pearson Triton, and Lapworth's Cal 40.

There's also Brewer's Goderich/Huromic 35, which may be the first radius bilge metal hull sailboat.
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  #45  
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

Two relative new boats that had an huge importance in what regards the way two concepts were looked and used. Not properly created them but make them popular and after these boats many others were made around this criteria...and many more are still coming on the market.

Both fast, both beachable, one of them designed as a long range small cruiser the other as a polivalent cruiser. Curiously while both are fast neither of them was thought as a race cruiser and no attention was given to any improvement regarding possible rating. Both rate very badly

The two concepts are a swing very deep ballasted keel on a beamy hull adapted to solo sailing and the other twin keels but designed to perform very well with low draft on a small boat also adapted to solo sailing plus the possibility of being sailed from the interior. The RM reintroduced in the market a technology that was forgotten, the use of marine plywood, now mixed with modern materials like epoxy and kevlar.

The RM 1050 is a Marc Lombard design and the Pogo 10.50 a Finot design.

http://www.marclombard.com/index.php...lang=en#RM1050

http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batprod...0/pogo1050.htm
















Last edited by PCP; 01-07-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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  #46  
Old 01-07-2013
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

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Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
Is my take on this wrong, to be paradigm-shifting doesn't the design have to have a profound impact on what follows in sailing? Herreshof's catamaran was quite remarkable, but sailing in the decades that followed was not materially affected by it (perhaps sadly). On the other hand, the Westsail 32 opened the door that allows me to be sitting on my boat in South Africa, even though I have never had any interest in buying one. It shifted the paradigm. The Cal 40 made downwind sailing faster and that is useful, but not all that many boats followed that lead. Perhaps we need more categories of impact?
That's why I said Amaryllis might have changed sailing, but didn't. To be fair to the people who condemned the design in 1876, there is no way that boat could have survived a beating, not with spruce spars for the bowsprit and crossbeams. The forces on big multis are insane. It wasn't until aircraft alloys and carbon fiber that Herreshoff's vision could be implemented with any sort of margin, almost a hundred years later. Even then, those boats can fail catastrophically -- Alan Colas was lost racing PD4; and many big cats and tris continue to struggle with the engineering demands that come with their speeds & form stability.

Still, the paradigm has shifted. Banque Pop just rounded the world in 45.5 days -- two weeks faster than any powered vessel; maxi tris are the boat of choice for smashing records, and they all look rather likePD4. And apparently, the America's Cup is now the provence of bleeding-edge mutihulls. Look at the AC45s, then look again at Amaryllis. Nat's ideas were not a blind alley but just had to wait until materials science made them feasible.
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  #47  
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You have made an absolute statesmen: "also believe the Macgregor 65 is the fastest production monohull to date".

no price range was mentioned and no size was mentioned.

Paulo
Wow ... ok - should have seen that coming.

A quick search on Yachtworld showed $160-$290 US for a Macgregor 65.

Remember, we are taking Paradigm changing, not just list of very expensive boats.

Macgregor is paradigm changing as Roger did it at an affordable price opening the sport to many that would not be able to participate. Add easily trailerable and he's had a huge impact on sailing - more than most.
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

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Originally Posted by HeartsContent View Post

A quick search on Yachtworld showed $160-$290 US for a Macgregor 65.

.
Cool.... a 65 footer for less than $300 !! I'll take two (you pay the moorage unless it's based on beam )
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  #49  
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsContent View Post
Wow ... ok - should have seen that coming.

A quick search on Yachtworld showed $160-$290 US for a Macgregor 65.

Remember, we are taking Paradigm changing, not just list of very expensive boats.

Macgregor is paradigm changing as Roger did it at an affordable price opening the sport to many that would not be able to participate. Add easily trailerable and he's had a huge impact on sailing - more than most.
Ok! I was not saying that the MacGregor 65 is not a great boat neither that it did not deserve a place on the thread, just made a small observation regarding not being the fastest production boat to date.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-08-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Re: Paradigm changing boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
Is my take on this wrong, to be paradigm-shifting doesn't the design have to have a profound impact on what follows in sailing? Herreshof's catamaran was quite remarkable, but sailing in the decades that followed was not materially affected by it (perhaps sadly). On the other hand, the Westsail 32 opened the door that allows me to be sitting on my boat in South Africa, even though I have never had any interest in buying one. It shifted the paradigm. The Cal 40 made downwind sailing faster and that is useful, but not all that many boats followed that lead. Perhaps we need more categories of impact?
Overall you are exactly right - that's what a paradigm (hate that word!) shift is.

I think you're wrong about the Cal 40 though - it had a very big effect on the racers and later, cruisers that followed - pure fin keel and balanced spade rudder along with greatly reduced displacement. It opened peoples eyes to what was possible in a seaworthy boat. It did a lot more than sail downhill fast.
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