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Paradigm changing boats

12K views 54 replies 18 participants last post by  bobmcgov 
#1 ·
Just finished reading the full/fin keel debate and learned alot. Many noted you get the whole package and the keel is just part of it. Wonder which boats our esteemed panel think changed the game and why? e.g.
Valiant40/42- you can sail the world and expect to come home
Tayana 37- you can do it and not be a millionaire
Prout 39- you can do it on a multi hull
Deerfoot- 2 of you can do it on a big boat
Dana- you can do it on a small boat
J 24- the average guy can go fast
Cherubini- narrow and full keel doesn't mean slow
F27- go fast, fold it up and go home
Boreal 44- put all the weight in the middle then who needs a keel for a good ride
ETAP- who says only Boston Whalers are sink proof
Swan 46- it can be fast,beautiful and take what the sea hands out
etc.
All the best to you all
 
#2 ·
I'd add the Pearson Triton(?).. pioneering the whole fiberglass recreational sailing era...

Nice list. And nice fleet too, Outbound 46 AND a PSC 34? that on purpose or is one of them for sale?
 
#3 ·
Just finished reading the full/fin keel debate and learned alot. Many noted you get the whole package and the keel is just part of it. Wonder which boats our esteemed panel think changed the game and why? e.g.

Not sure how esteemed I am but will give it a shot. My sense is that paradigms don't get shifted very often so there will not be a long list.

Valiant40/42- you can sail the world and expect to come home
Tayana 37- you can do it and not be a millionaire

Without the Westsail 32 these two may not have existed. The Westsail started the whole idea that you could head off to sea. You could even get as a kit,
.

Prout 39- you can do it on a multi hull

[
The first significant cruising cat should be on the list. I will take your for it that this is the one.
/COLOR]

Deerfoot- 2 of you can do it on a big boat
Not sure what paradigm got shifted here since really big cruising boats are rare. The move to bigger and bigger boats has been evolutionary rather than revolutionary. If this is the case the poster is likely the Amel since so many are out there and they keep getting bigger.

Dana- you can do it on a small boat

no paradigm was shifted here since the norm in the past was for smaller boats to be used. If you had to pick, maybe the Contessa 26, but it was of course based on the Folkboat. Maybe the best choice here would be John Guzzwell's Trekka

J 24- the average guy can go fast

lots of candidates but I would vote for the Hobie Cat or Laser

Cherubini- narrow and full keel doesn't mean slow
F27- go fast, fold it up and go home
Boreal 44- put all the weight in the middle then who needs a keel for a good ride
ETAP- who says only Boston Whalers are sink proof

All of these may be great boats but they did not change the fundamentals of sailing or cruising eg if sink proof was such a great idea why has it not caught on

Swan 46- it can be fast,beautiful and take what the sea hands out
etc.

again this boat did not change anything. Before and after it many boats aspired to be fast, beautiful, and tough. A fair number were successful.
All the best to you all


I think it is important not to confuse iconic vessels with game changers. Among the former would be boats like the Bermuda 40 and the Freedom 40. Among the latter would be Salty Tiger (hope I remember the name correctly), the fiest glass boat to win the Bermuda Race in 1969. After that plastic boats had to be taken seriously. Good topic to discuss.
 
#4 · (Edited)
you're definitley right. Wondering what's your list. ?
bougainvillea- glass has nothing on metal for elegance
BCC- maybe our forefather's knew something about the sea
Seguin 44- hull form can bring you to weather
Was thinking that being both representing different thinking and iconic changed the game but agree with you that your comments show deeper knowledge. Please share it.

Yup- you're right again the Crealock is for sale. Sweet little boat but not enough room for the bride's hair dryer and curlers. LOL
Tx.
 
#6 ·
Cal 40 - brought surfing in sailboats to the world. :)

Ganbare 35 - Gets forgotten as "just an IOR boat" but it really changed the way hull/keel interaction was viewed
 
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#8 ·
Ok, I will play:)

I will say that even if I find today the Boreal a lot better than the OVNI the true paradigm of that boat is the OVNI. Maybe the 43, the one Cornell had.

Jimmy Cornell answers questions about OVNI yachts | Cornell Sailing Books

The Folkboat should be on that list no doubt and probably the Amel Maramu too.

Probably the Halberg-Rassy 312. Do you know that they had made 700 boats of that model?

The 1976 First 30 designed by Andre Mauric

Le First 30, André Mauric, le bienfaiteur du chantier Bénéteau. | All Boats Avenue

and probably tomorrow I will find out more but I guess that even counting only iconic boats, it is going to be a long one;)
 
#10 ·
I guess the game has always been changing. Prior to those, a big design change was Sparkmen and Stevens FINESTERRE. Compared to the fastest ocean racers in the day, it was fat(outrageous beam of 11'+), it's design priority was to be a comfortable cruising boat first, racer second(cruiser/racer). Even worse, it had a centerboard in a stub keel(the owner had shallow water sailing in mind). Some of these features helped it's handicap in the CCA era.

The captain(Mitchell) outsailed the fleet but much was blamed on the new design as it won the Marion Bermuda race, not once, but three seasons in a row.

Then Mitchell went off and cruised it for years. This is one of those designs that looks like it's moving even on jack stands.
This is a sistership, FIDELIO, and still competes(via handicap) in classic races today. This is the design that started the run of boats like the Block Island 40, Bermuda 40, Bristol 40, and many others(including my boat, Alden challenger).
 

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#14 ·
Let's not forget Dorade as well - Stephens first design - changed yachts from basically fishing schooners into "modern" yachts. Also gave us the Dorade vent.
 
#16 ·
#15 ·
Not open to debate - Bill Haley & the Comets with Rock Around the Clock. ;)
 
#13 · (Edited)
Jeanneau Sangria

Outbound this thread is a great idea but I guess it can be even better. I have a suggestion:

You, with the collaboration of the members trough discussion will have on the first post the actualized names of the boats that are selected. On the boat file you will refer the post nÂş that had gave origin to it and the poster that originally proposed the boat that was selected has to have on its post information and photos or movies about the boat. Preferably a photo showing the complete hull with the underwater body.

Of course this will represent a lot of work for you but it will make this a reference instructive and very interesting thread, one that should be sticky.

What do you think guys?

I will post one on this terms.

Jeanneau Sangria

Many don't know that Jeanneau was for more than a decade strictly a motor boat company. Back in 1968 the founder, Henri Jeanneau, that had raced motorboats, wanted to build also sailingboats. He went to one of the greater NA of his time Van den Stadt that had designed the Storm. The boat was heavy and not fast and Jeanneau was not satisfied.

His commercial director advised him to make a design command to a new and very talented young NA from La Rochelle, Philippe Harlé....and the Sangria was born.

The Sagria (7.60) is an incredibly innovative design considering 1969. The boat with slight alterations stayed in production till 1984 and about 3000 boats were made. If this is not the cruiser that was made in bigger numbers it is certainly among the few that were made in so large number.

It was an offshore boat that even if not a cruiser racer could do very well in offshore races. Take a look at how modern that hull was:





Information about the boat:

Caractristiques du voilier Sangria

http://www.sangriaquilamis.org/Temporaire/essai__jeanneau_sangria_novembre_1976_bateaux_150.pdf







A word about Philippe Harlé. It was one of the first NA do develop an interest for solo racing. He made one of the first mini transat races (when all those guys were considered raving mad) and with the knowledge that he had and the one we learned on the race designed another boat that would become an icon to solo and sportive ocean sailors, the Coco, built by Archambault:

Redirect by ulimit.com

The Coco was the first boat of its type to be produced and made in large numbers. It was also the predecessor of the Pogo in what regards philosophy and overall shape.

Philipe Harlé had an unfortunately not long life (1931-1991) but a very productive one and 14000 boats were made according to his plans. He was also the mentor of probably the biggest Architect of the next generation, Jean Marie Finot, that not by accident, was the one that designed the Pogo.
 
#24 ·
This certainly comes as a surprise:

In his book Sensible Cruising Designs, L. Francis Herreshoff promulgated the concept of a slim, canting-keel, 45-foot cruiser as the "ultimate sailing machine." In 1957, Kiwi designer Jim Young built the boat out of kauri wood; with Herreshoff's permission, he made some slight alterations to the design. "He added a foot of beam, fortunately, expanding it from six feet to seven feet," says Gary. "It made her somewhat habitable down below."

Though Fiery Cross was New Zealand's first canting-keel raceboat, after only a couple of years the boat was given a fixed keel to comply with the racing rules of the time.


New Zealand Classic | Cruising World

On "modern" times the concept was reinvented by Pascal Conq that was the one to use it successively in racing boats, I mean canting keels as we know them today. Him and his senior partner Finot (and some other French designers) were the ones that developed a reliable system as we know it today, working on Open60, that were much the testing boats were was made all the extensive testing to make them reliable.

Canting keels : A 30 years story ! | finot-conq architectes navals

Looking at Fierry Cross system I have some doubts regarding its reliability but then at the time they do not have the technology to do better than that.

I agree that the boat is not only a breakthrough in design as it is very modern even if it escapes completely the concept of a planning boat. I am quite sure the boat is still a very good boat upwind.

It certainly deserves its place on this thread. The boat:









some more interesting information on the words of the designer, Jim Young:

In L. Frances Herreshoff's book Common Sense of Yacht Design, he advocated the system of canting the keel to windward to get the stability of a beamy boat, but in a narrow hull and without the drag of wide beam.

I thought that a great idea. It would add greatly to the sensation of sailing, great for cruising or reaching up to Kawau Island and up the northern coast. So I built her with that set-up in mind and you can see in the photograph of the hull being turned over of a hollow where the keel fin was recessed.




I knew that if you wanted speed then the boat would have to be long. And to keep costs down the hull would have to be narrow, plus having light gear with a light rig and everything else light and inexpensive. And the type of hull itself was the same as Herreschoff had advocated in his book, a double ended hull.

I had some correspondence with him because the boat he drew was the same length, 45 feet, but had only 6 foot (13.7 x 1.8 m) beam with 6.5 foot (2 m) draught. And I wanted to make this boat 7 foot (2.13 m) beam and so I wrote to him saying I was interested in his ideas but wanted to increase beam and asked him what he thought of that. He was full of enthusiasm and pleased to see someone carry out his ideas."


Regards

Paulo
 
#19 ·
great idea PCP. Unfortunatey still have to work for a living Putting it away for the cruising kitty. Please take this thread where you think it should go. Very impressed that folks jumped on the engineering concept. On call - so sorry didn't respond sooner.
 
#25 ·
Hi, thanks for the confidence.

Unfortunately even if I had post some posts related to the way I think the thread should go, I mean regarding boats posted by other posters I do not have time to do it also.

In fact this has been fun and I mean also the interesting sailboat thread. I like to do it but it is a kind of addicted thing that takes my time away.

Very soon I will ended this type of participation since this is just a good excuse not to make other more disagreeable things I have to do, more important things.

This thread is a very interesting idea and It would be very interesting if someone had the time to explore the full potential of it. Not me.

Best regards

Paulo
 
#20 · (Edited)
Herreshoff's early multihull Amaryllis (1876) should have moved heaven and earth -- and would have, had the reactionary fools of the yawt-ting set not reacted so violently to it.




Modern, much?!?! After the design's suppression, it really wasn't until Tabarly's Pen Duick IV that ocean-racing multis stormed back to the fore.



Guess what Tabarly was working on in 1976?



Could be the next paradigm shift.:)
 
#21 ·
Herreshoff's early multihull Amaryllis (1876) should have moved heaven and earth -- and would have, had the reactionary fools of the yawt-ting set not reacted so violently to it.




Modern, much?!?! After the design's suppression, it really wasn't until Tabarly's Pen Duick IV that ocean-racing multis stormed back to the fore.



Guess what Tabarly was working on in 1976?



Could be the next paradigm shift.:)
Nice post. I agree:)

Regards

Paulo
 
#28 ·
To me, boats that initially came out with a different design than the norm, but eventually changed how sailers looked at things. I was reading an article in a local rag yesterday, showed a IIRC 65' Swan that won one of the first V70 style races, still cruises etc with 185K miles under its hull. Shape is very close etc to todays cruisers. Todays new V65 that will be used, will probably be the new shape of cruisers in 10-15 yrs.

One can see this in boats like the Bene first 30, Mumm/farr 30, to a degree the Elan 310/350, Jeanneau sunfast 3200, and bene figaroo also.

The J24 to me is one, as Johnsons did not design the boat to a rule, just to make a fast fun sailing boat. The Cal 40 could also be in this vain to a degree also.

Also, the race rules are allowing certain styles of boats that are more seaworthy to a degree too. A compared to the later IOR models with pinched sterns etc. In the end, it is all good. Easier to sail, comfortable, dry, fast etc.

Then if you look at boats from different area's of the world, you see designs that worked in those weather style environments. Proa's in the S pacific, dugout canoes here in the NW US and SW BC/Canada area, Kayaks in alaska, double enders in the Norway/finland area, wherry in New england........I'm sure I am missing some local designs, but hopefully the reader can add some.

Battle ships styles, how about the Greek ships with a WL longer than the deck so they could ram another boat and tip it over! Lots of interesting how things go


Marty
 
#29 ·
I was reading an article in a local rag yesterday, showed a IIRC 65' Swan that won one of the first V70 style races, still cruises etc with 185K miles under its hull. Shape is very close etc to todays cruisers.

Marty
That boat was Sayula and the race was the original Whitbread RTW race. The boat got rolled 360 degrees at least once in the Southern Ocean, came up with rig intact and went on to win. :cool:

It was obviously well designed, well built and beautiful but it was a fairly conventional boat for its time. S&S were pretty conservative by then in the context of racing boats - they only had a couple of more years at the top before Peterson, Holland, Frers et.al. took the lead in IOR design.

It certainly wasn't a paradigm shifter.
 
#33 ·
aaarrrggghhh.... have to agree with this one (going to look for mouthwash...;):rolleyes::))

I agree regarding the T-bird, if only because it demonstrated that a reverse sheer didn't have to be ugly. but, having said that, I think the Thunderbird's forerunners, the Controversy boats, may be the paradigm changers because they led the way:

The Rest of the Designs

Thanks for that, bl... hadn't heard of them before.. do you have the year they started? Are they all plywood projects - some appear to be soft chine designs..
 
#31 ·
Somebody already mentioned the Westsail 32. I think for a lot of people that was a major game changer. The idea of being able to sail the world in a bullet proof, economical boat was a new concept. The fact that a lot of them were bought as bare hulls and many were never completed by the original owners aside, it still opened up world cruising to the masses (well, relatively speaking:)).
I think the other one I would add to the list would be the Thunderbird, still lot's of them around and active fleets racing.
 
#34 ·
What about the big sell out? Yacht designer Robert Perry said that, "If you were like me, you probably did a near retch the first time you saw an Out Island 41." Annapolis naval architect Jack Horner reacted with disappointment with the introduction of the Out Island. He thought that Charley Morgan had sold out, "I thought Morgan had betrayed his traditional roots and sacrificed elegance and balance for volume and headroom." The Morgan Out Island was the most prolific in production for a boat over forty feet for many years and the first to raise the freeboard to the top of the cabin trunk that became popular. What was considered gauche in the seventies is now surpased with the high freeboards of the Hunters, Beneteaus and Catalinas now. 'Not a trend approved by all, but a true paradigm shift.
 
#39 ·
THe santa cruz 52 and 70 were equal to slightly faster, and a minute faster for the 70. Schock 40, a production cruisable canting keel on par, A number of Swans in the 50-70' range, not to mention the 45 and NYC club swan 42. J145 nd 160, Nelson Merek 68, to name a few. Not sure ALL are in the same price range, but all have 0 to -60+ phrf handicaps, the MG65 is 0 to -40 from looking at a us sailing rating chart.

The santa cruz versions really started the fast is fun part too.

marty
 
#40 ·
Yes.. The SC 50 probably deserves a mention here...
 
#41 ·
From a production boat standpoint but Merlin really started the big sled phenomenon. 27 knots in the Transpac in the 70's. :eek: In the Molokai channel near the end of the race they ran away from a Coast Guard cutter that was sent to escort them. :)

It's a fairly routine speed for the big boats now but then it was strictly the province of boats like Hobie cats and rarely even for them.

The attached is from '77 - they have virtually sailed it under like an old China Clipper.
 

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