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post #21 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Joel, Barry -
I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.

There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.

Since the have the kit why DIY? Safety should never be suborned to budget.

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post #22 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Joel,

I personally think you are going in the right direction for improving your off-wind sailing experience. My next boat I plan to do the same, add a sprit with a furling asymetrical. Decent performance off wind is all about sail area, and using a sprit can allow you to fly a asym up to 100% larger than a cruising chute flown off the stem. Yes, a cruising chute is better than a white sail off wind, but quite limited. The furling characteristic makes setting and retrieving practical for shorthanding, and the area provides performance. Go for it.

I'd be hesitant to make my own sprit though...

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post #23 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

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Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
Joel,

I personally think you are going in the right direction for improving your off-wind sailing experience. My next boat I plan to do the same, add a sprit with a furling asymetrical. Decent performance off wind is all about sail area, and using a sprit can allow you to fly a asym up to 100% larger than a cruising chute flown off the stem. Yes, a cruising chute is better than a white sail off wind, but quite limited. The furling characteristic makes setting and retrieving practical for shorthanding, and the area provides performance. Go for it.

I'd be hesitant to make my own sprit though...
I'm curious, what sort of sail are you referring to, precisely? A Code 0?

As much as I love mine, I still think a cruising chute is less "limited" for downwind sailing on a boat like a Catalina 27 (especially at deeper angles), than the sort of sail you seem to be describing... Unless you're talking about sailing higher performance boats, and tacking downwind, of course...

Frankly, I think my little tub might become just a tad unmanageable, if I were flying a sail 100% larger than my current Ambiguously Gay Cruising Chute, flown from the stem... (grin)

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post #24 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

If you were to design your own sprit, a great feature would be an articulating sprit with the sprit pivoting around the stem area and a curved track on the aft, so you could position it to the gunwale on either leeward side when flying the spinnaker, thus gaining additional valuable projection of the pole to windward.
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post #25 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Hi John,

The sail inventory on the race boat is:
Dacron main with 1 reef
Laminate #1
Laminate #2
Standard spinnaker
Asymmetric spinnaker
Code 0

Last year the owner bought the code 0 sail, along with the top down furling gear. I believe the unit is from Harken. Anyway, when he bought the Code 0 he also the asym modified to use the furling gear too. We can fly the asym normally, or use it with the furling gear (I've only done that once). I believe that from now on the asym on the boat will only be used with the furling gear. A 'Torsion' line is hoisted and once that's tensioned it doesn't twist but rotates and the sail wraps around it. The torsion line is relatively cheap and the bottom 'drum' unit can be used with multiple torsion lines. We switch the furling drum between sails as needed.

Regarding furling vs the sock, for racing the furling unit is clearly better as a hoisted sail in the sock is large, bulky, and would cause a lot of windage while a hoisted furled sail is much smaller. For cruising I think there's much advantage of one over the other (on boats under say 45').

Barry

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Might be a bit of an apples to oranges comparison we're making here...

When you say that you furled an "asymmetric sail", or "gennaker", did you do so with one of the new Top-Down furlers like those from Karver? Or an older Roll-Gen? Because those are the only way to "furl" an asymmetrical spinnaker that I'm aware of... And, those units like the Karver, are VERY expensive...

People tend to use the terms "asymmetrical", "gennaker", and "Code 0" interchangeably, but the Code 0 is a very different sail, with a straight luff of high strength that makes it possible to furl in a conventional manner... That can't be done with a spinnaker...

The top-down systems were first developed for the big superyachts, where the sheer size and weight of a sock made for difficult handling by the crew... But for the sort of boats most of us sail, I still think a sock is the way to go... The top-down furlers need to be tacked to either the stem, or a sprit, they appear to lack the versatility of being able to fly an asymmetrical spinnaker using a pole, for instance... Never having used one myself, however, I'm not certain about that... Has anyone out there used one? I'd be interested in hearing your take...

Barry Lenoble
Deep Blue C, 2002 C&C 110
Mt. Sinai, NY

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post #26 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Joel, Barry -
I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.
I
There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.

Since the have the kit why DIY? Safety should never be suborned to budget.
The "engineered" kits you refer to typically use either u-bolts or rings bolted to the deck. Some kits I have seen bolt onto the anchor roller. A DIY project that utilizes the boat's stem fitting should be just as strong or stronger than those arrangements, assuming the stem fitting is not already compromised. The stem is one of the strongest parts of the boat, because it has already been engineered to handle the load of the forestay and a big genoa.

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post #27 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm curious, what sort of sail are you referring to, precisely? A Code 0? ...
The sail I have in mind is often referred to as an A1 as in Asymmetric Racing Spinnakers | Doyle Sailmakers. Not having done the math, Ii would think an A1 on a CAt27 with a four four sprit would have 70% or more area than a cruising chute. combined with the convenience of a furler, this area makes the sail more useful in the light to mid winds. In higher winds, the price of sailing with a genoa is not so bad...

I agree your cruising chute is providing excellent drive in your photo, and a larger A1 would be dicey, but winds in the high teens to low 20s is not the sweet spot where most sailors are looking for more go anyway.

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post #28 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

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Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
The sail I have in mind is often referred to as an A1 as in Asymmetric Racing Spinnakers | Doyle Sailmakers. Not having done the math, Ii would think an A1 on a CAt27 with a four four sprit would have 70% or more area than a cruising chute. combined with the convenience of a furler, this area makes the sail more useful in the light to mid winds. In higher winds, the price of sailing with a genoa is not so bad...

I agree your cruising chute is providing excellent drive in your photo, and a larger A1 would be dicey, but winds in the high teens to low 20s is not the sweet spot where most sailors are looking for more go anyway.
You also have to keep in mind that the difference is not just about sail area. JonEisenberg's sail looks almost like a symetric spinnaker being flown as a "cruising chute". It has very full shoulders which makes it more suitable for sailing deeper. Once it is used on hotter angles it will become less efficient. It will start to generate more heeling and less forward drive just as a symetric does when tight reaching. An A1 asymetric, on the other hand, has a flatter shape, and a draft position that is more suited to reaching, so the power it generates is more forward and less heeling. It is more suited to the angles you need to sail at when you are flyimg from a fixed point on centerline. There is no point in having a "running" sail shape when running results in the sail being blanketed by the main. Of course not all cruising chutes and asyms are the same. They doo build a-kites that have more downwind shapes, just as they build symetrics for reaching.



My chute is classified as an A2 because it is a bit smaller. It is short on the hoist to accomodate a furler or sock which I haven't bought yet. It is quite a bit smaller than my biggest symetric, but still generates plenty of power. (I wish I had a pic of us doing 7.5kts with it last summer!) The beauty of it is that it is far more manageable power than a symetric.

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Last edited by SchockT; 01-09-2013 at 05:33 PM.
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post #29 of 42 Old 01-09-2013
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Here is a graphic from North Sails that might help illustrate the differences between the different downwind sails. The “A” sails are asymmetrics (It looks like this is what Jon has). The “S”s are the symmetrics. Note that the odd numbers are reachers and the even numbers are runners. On the right, the “G” sails are the North Gennekers and the “C”s are the coded sails. Note that the coded sails are used for reaching and beating, not running. After-all, the North Code versions have a wire luff stitched into them. Incidentally, on the family Catalina, I have a G2 and S2 on board. I can easily single or double hand the Genneker, but with only one spinnaker pole, the symmetric is only used when I have enough crew so someone can act as bowman. The G2 is a little frustrating insomuch as it has no performance in very light airs and unfortunately, an A1.5 is not in the budget.




This is what our North G2 Genneker looks like (we call her “Pinky”… You got to be real secure in your masculinity to fly something made with neon pink.)


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Alameda, Ca.
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post #30 of 42 Old 01-09-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Joel, Barry -
I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.

There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.

Since the have the kit why DIY? Safety should never be suborned to budget.
Oh, no offense taken Chuckles. I understood the spirit of your concern.
As far as purchasing the kit over DIY, well, I have a lot of hobbies, all of which are expensive. But mostly I love the feeling I get when I pull off a good DIY. I guess my confidence is pretty high on this one. But, I plan on proceeding cautiously, if I proceed at all. I definitely plan on getting a couple of ride-alongs on other peoples boats to get more sense of these sails.
Cheers,
Joel H.

Last edited by Joel H.; 01-09-2013 at 07:05 PM.
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