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Retractable Bowsprit DIY

47K views 41 replies 11 participants last post by  knuterikt 
#1 ·
This is a copy of a post I made on the Catalina owners forum.
1978 C27 std. rig.
In the interest of flying my Gennaker or even getting a Code Zero furler some day, I'm fashioning my own retractable Bowsprit out of a scavenged Hobie Cat 16 boom extrusion that I had laying around, (A nice ridgid teardrop shape that fits wonderfully between the pulpit stanchon base and the stem fitting).
I have most of it worked out, including shaping up a pillow-block and stem fitting attachment to mount it. (The Sprit, of course, is mounted to the side of the stem fitting).

But

I have some unknowns yet to solve: Do I run it parallel to the centerline, but offset, allowing me to vary it's extension according to future needs, but have a odd angle for the bobstay and furler torque line?
OR
Do I determine how far out it needs to extend in relationship to the bow pulpit railing above it, for a furler, and after determining that dimension should I angle the Sprit so that the end intersects the centerline of the boat at that extension length in order to have a centered bobstay and furler?
Or
Do I modify the pulpit rail so it doesn't have to extend far and forgo the bobstay altogether?

What say ye?
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Joel H.
 
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#2 ·
I have to wonder why you think it's necessary to get such an additional forward projection for the tack of an asymetrical on a boat such as yours. Simply flying it from the stem will work fine, or even the use of a spinnaker pole will afford you better options...

Don't even think about trying to fly a Code 0 from such a prod, the loads imparted by those sails can be quite high... Even a regular asym will generate some decent loads when the breeze comes up, I seriously doubt a Hobie 16 boom will be up to handling them, unless you rig a temporary bobstay... there's good reason why carbon fiber is generally the material of choice for such sprits...

Years ago, I configured a way to use my spinnaker pole as a sprit, but I've only used it a handful of times... I simply haven't seen any real advantage to it. Better and easier to use the pole in a conventional fashion, I've found...
 
#3 ·
With a strong enough extrusion there is no reason you can't get a 3' projection without a bob stay. Most of the Selden sprit kits do it. I don't know how strong your hobie boom section is, but I used a piece of schedule 80 4" aluminum tube for mine, and it has stood up to some pretty high loads, and even the shock load of colapsing and re filling at the top end of the sail's wind range without breaking or bending. You should talk to your sailmaker about tack loads on a code zero. As for the end of the pole being on centerline, that would be ideal, but for cruising purposes, a few inches offset isn't going to matter much.

For the record, you will find flying the sail from a sprit MUCH better than flying it from the stem, and if you plan to use a furler it is a must. You don't need a lot of projection, just enough for the tack to clear the pulpit, and to keep the spinnaker furler clear of the forestay.
 
#4 ·
For the record, you will find flying the sail from a sprit MUCH better than flying it from the stem, and if you plan to use a furler it is a must. You don't need a lot of projection, just enough for the tack to clear the pulpit, and to keep the spinnaker furler clear of the forestay.
Just curious what sort of improvement you've found by flying from a sprit... I can see the advantage on a sport boat, but on a boat like mine, or on a Catalina 27, I'm not sure... My boat does have an unusually large J dimension, however, perhaps that's why a sprit for me might not be quite as advantageous...

Good point about the furler, but if he's going with a snuffer instead, it will work fine inside the pulpit... IMHO, I'd rather have a snuffer tacked to the deck inboard of everything, anyway...

for a Code 0, I have my furler tacked at the stem, right behind my headsail furler, seems to work fine... I suppose if I were attempting to sail at 50 degrees apparent, the furler would disturb the flow somewhat, but I generally find on a cruising boat, at that point a Code 0 really loses its advantage, and you're better off going with the genoa, anyway...
 
#5 · (Edited)
The main advantage is that the foot of the chute is clear of the pulpit and lifelines. If you tack the sail to the stem you either have to deal with the sail being distorted and chaffed by the pulpit, or you have to raise the tack up above the pulpit height using a strop. If you use a strop you have the problem of the whole sail falling to leeward, and you need to attach the tack to the forestay somehow to eliminate that problem. The other advantage a sprit gives you is that you can do inside gybes, meaning you run your sheet between the tack of the chute and the forestay. That eliminates the problem of the lazy sheet potentially falling under the bow if it gets too much slack in it. If you are running a furler you will also have the ability to leave the furled flying sail hoisted without it interfering with your ability to unfurl and use your headsail. And then of course there is the advantage of being able to fly a bigger sail from a sprit than you can from the stem.



In this pic I am using an old guy for my tack line, and it is eased slightly so the tack is a bit higher than normal.
 
#9 ·
Good point about the inside jibes, I'm a kroozer, so I try to avoid that sort of work as much as possible (grin)... Still, if I need to, I can still do the same with the tack at stem...

We obviously fly our chutes differently, I generally try to have the tack 4-6 feet above the deck, anyway... If I feel compelled to lower the tack to deck level, it's generally time to switch to a Code 0, anyway...

For Joel, whether you really need a Code 0 depends on the sort of sailing you do, of course... The sail and a continuous furler is a significant investment, and probably of questionable value to the typical weekend/vacation sailor... But, for more extended cruising, IMHO no other sail so consistently makes the difference between sailing, and motoring... I love my Code 0, it's been worth every penny, for the kind of sailing I do...

And, in my experience, it's a much more versatile sail than most people are led to believe... Most sailmakers will not tell you it can be used like this, for example...

 
#6 ·
To answer Jon as to why I need a Bowsprit on my boat, I will admit, I'm not 100% sure....
While I achieved a certain level of proficiency sailing Hobie Cats over many years, (single-handed). I only bought my Catalina 27 two seasons ago, so while I consider myself a decent sailor, there are certainly a few holes in my skill set/knowledge. Because I sail my C27 single-hand, I've never had the opportunity to fly the gennaker that came with the boat (or use the "whisker Pole", for that matter).
I will also admit that the code zero videos, coupled with the fact that I have this spar, and somewhat unlimited fabrication resources, just might have something to do with it.:eek:

Also, I just like toys!:D

Having said all that, am I wrong for thinking it would be vary cool to be able to deploy and dowse a asym. from the comfort of my lonely cockpit.

So, I guess my question now is: Is a code zero just a ridiculous thing to put on a C27? Or, would it be a reasonable asset to a solo sailor?
All opinions are appreciated.
 
#7 ·
A Code Zero seems like a big expense for an old Catalina. I would think that you would get more use out of a decent asymetric spinnaker than you would out of a Code Zero, but then I don't know what kind of sailing you do! The C27 runs a big genoa that will do you just fine for tight reaching, and when you want to sail deeper the asymetric will be more versatile.
 
#8 ·
I see. Well obviously I need to do a little thinking. And probably take another sailor's suggestion and sail on somebody else's boat while they fly a Asym. to get to understand more about it.

P.S. She might be old, but she shines and sails like a boat half her age.:D
 
#11 ·
I see. Well obviously I need to do a little thinking. And probably take another sailor's suggestion...
Here is a suggestion: make life easier on yourself and buy a symmetrical spinnaker. The conventional spinnaker pole will project the spinnaker much better than any sprit you can rig.

Benefits:

You will be much faster dead down wind.

You will improve the resale value of your boat.

You will look like a sailing stud who knows what he is doing.

You will experience mucho excitement when you jibe the spinnaker in heavy air.

You will save much time not attempting to rig something your boat was never designed to carry.
 
#10 ·
Does your existing gennaker have a sock? How are the halyards run? Do you have an autopilot?

I tried running a socked gennaker single handed on my C-25. I set a straight ahead course with the autopilot, went forward to the mast to raise the sock, routed sheets, then launched the gennaker.

It could be done without the sock too, but the sock makes it a lot easier to launch and douse (especially douse). Since you've already got all of this stuff (maybe not the sock) you should try it before building the bowspirit.
 
#12 ·
If a boat is not already set up for a symetric spinnaker, it is much more complicated and expensive to do than an a-kite. You will need a longer pole with ends, a mast track and car, (or at minimum a ring), a pole uphaul and downhaul, tweakers, or on a bigger boat, dedicated guys and forward leads for those guys. Symetric kites are more complicated to rig and to fly. Gybing requires someone to go forward. If you are single handing you will have to rely on an auto helm, or lock off the helm. If you are in seas with any kind of wind you can get into big trouble if a wave knocks you off course while you are gybing the pole. Sure, those of us who race and have flown spinnakers for years can pull it off, and yes we look god-like when we do!:D having said that, there is no way I would recommend it to a newbie.

It is true that you can sail deeper with a symetric chute, but DDW sucks! It is the slowest point of sail, and I avoid it if I can!
 
#13 ·
Practical Sailor did a nice article on the proliferation of long noses on boats, both new and add on's.

Bottom line Joel - unless you SERIOUSLY reinforce the ENTIRE bow area for loads in all directions (including shear) you might wind up with an expensive bit of rhino-plasty the first time it gets all white knuckle on you.
Your bow was not designed for loads in front of the bow, and it will interfere with anchoring.
 
#15 ·
Hey,

I haven't read the PS article, but your comment seems a little too strong. There are numerous companies manufacturing and selling retractable bowsprints for older boats, including CatalinaDirect:

Catalina Direct: Cruising Spinnaker Retractable Bowsprit Kit

note that the kit is specifically recommended for the C27.

I'm not suggesting that you should fly a monster chute off a 10' homemade sprit, but the benefits of a sprit are well documented and the sprit seems to be the future of sailing, especially when used with 'code' sails.

I race on an old (1980) c&c 34. The owner is constantly updating the boat. For last season he added a code 0 sail for reaching in light air. He didn't add a sprit for this, but we do use the spin pole as makeshift sprit and it seems to work ok.

Furling the code sail is MUCH easier than dropping a chute, especially when sailing with an inexperienced crew.

Barry

Practical Sailor did a nice article on the proliferation of long noses on boats, both new and add on's.

Bottom line Joel - unless you SERIOUSLY reinforce the ENTIRE bow area for loads in all directions (including shear) you might wind up with an expensive bit of rhino-plasty the first time it gets all white knuckle on you.
Your bow was not designed for loads in front of the bow, and it will interfere with anchoring.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Yeah, what Barry said....LOL

Seriously though, I'm appreciating all the feedback and have, based on the range of opinions, decided to throttle back my enthusiasm and get better educated in order to weigh all the pros and cons. I decided I need to hook up with more experienced sailors, in the spring, in hopes of getting a better idea of all the ins and outs of downwind sails.
Quote:Furling the code sail is MUCH easier than dropping a chute, especially when sailing with an inexperienced crew.
----See I like this idea, this is what is motivating me!

Lastly, in response to Chuckles: I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure my Catalina 27 is a little more solid than all that. But I appreciate the concern!
 
#21 ·
Joel, Barry -
I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.

There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.

Since the have the kit why DIY? Safety should never be suborned to budget.
 
#26 ·
Joel, Barry -
I'm not taking digs at the C27, just passing on a concern.
I
There is a serious difference between buying a well engineered kit from the builder and a DIY. I'm also not taking digs at Joel's ability to engineer it out properly and safely.

Since the have the kit why DIY? Safety should never be suborned to budget.
The "engineered" kits you refer to typically use either u-bolts or rings bolted to the deck. Some kits I have seen bolt onto the anchor roller. A DIY project that utilizes the boat's stem fitting should be just as strong or stronger than those arrangements, assuming the stem fitting is not already compromised. The stem is one of the strongest parts of the boat, because it has already been engineered to handle the load of the forestay and a big genoa.
 
#22 ·
Joel,

I personally think you are going in the right direction for improving your off-wind sailing experience. My next boat I plan to do the same, add a sprit with a furling asymetrical. Decent performance off wind is all about sail area, and using a sprit can allow you to fly a asym up to 100% larger than a cruising chute flown off the stem. Yes, a cruising chute is better than a white sail off wind, but quite limited. The furling characteristic makes setting and retrieving practical for shorthanding, and the area provides performance. Go for it.

I'd be hesitant to make my own sprit though...
 
#23 ·
Joel,

I personally think you are going in the right direction for improving your off-wind sailing experience. My next boat I plan to do the same, add a sprit with a furling asymetrical. Decent performance off wind is all about sail area, and using a sprit can allow you to fly a asym up to 100% larger than a cruising chute flown off the stem. Yes, a cruising chute is better than a white sail off wind, but quite limited. The furling characteristic makes setting and retrieving practical for shorthanding, and the area provides performance. Go for it.

I'd be hesitant to make my own sprit though...
I'm curious, what sort of sail are you referring to, precisely? A Code 0?

As much as I love mine, I still think a cruising chute is less "limited" for downwind sailing on a boat like a Catalina 27 (especially at deeper angles), than the sort of sail you seem to be describing... Unless you're talking about sailing higher performance boats, and tacking downwind, of course...

Frankly, I think my little tub might become just a tad unmanageable, if I were flying a sail 100% larger than my current Ambiguously Gay Cruising Chute, flown from the stem... (grin)

 
#24 ·
If you were to design your own sprit, a great feature would be an articulating sprit with the sprit pivoting around the stem area and a curved track on the aft, so you could position it to the gunwale on either leeward side when flying the spinnaker, thus gaining additional valuable projection of the pole to windward.
 
#31 ·
Wow, that would be trick.
Though on my Cat. 27, if you draw a line parallel to the centerline, between the stem fitting and the foreword pulpit rail stanchion, there isn't a lot of cross-section there. So I don't think I can get much more swing to starboard, presuming I mount it on the port side, than it will take just to get it to intersect the C/L of the boat at a decent projection. That was one reason the teardrop cross-section of the spar, I have, seemed so "ready made".
Thanks for the thought James.
Next time I'm down at the yard I'll check that possibility out.
Cheers for now,
Joel H.
 
#29 ·
Here is a graphic from North Sails that might help illustrate the differences between the different downwind sails. The "A" sails are asymmetrics (It looks like this is what Jon has). The "S"s are the symmetrics. Note that the odd numbers are reachers and the even numbers are runners. On the right, the "G" sails are the North Gennekers and the "C"s are the coded sails. Note that the coded sails are used for reaching and beating, not running. After-all, the North Code versions have a wire luff stitched into them. Incidentally, on the family Catalina, I have a G2 and S2 on board. I can easily single or double hand the Genneker, but with only one spinnaker pole, the symmetric is only used when I have enough crew so someone can act as bowman. The G2 is a little frustrating insomuch as it has no performance in very light airs and unfortunately, an A1.5 is not in the budget.



This is what our North G2 Genneker looks like (we call her "Pinky"… You got to be real secure in your masculinity to fly something made with neon pink.)

 
#36 · (Edited)
That's an interesting setup, although 3 minutes, 3 trips to the bow, and leaving the pole loose on the deck for one gybe seems a bit messy to me!

The douse in the second video is what we call a "letter-box drop", and it is a good way to control the chute and keep it from getting fouled on the way down IF you have a loose footed main. Throwing the halyard overboard to ensure it runs smooth works well. I do it once in a while just to get the twists out, but you have to remember to rinse the salt out of it if you care about your halyards!
 
#37 ·
Don't know why he had to go 3 trips on the fore deck for that gybe.

When I gybe with my asymmetric I do only one trip to shift side for the spinnaker boom (or stow it if not needed on the new tack).

We do letter box drop with the spinnaker regularly on the boat I race on.

The asymmetric on my boat is set in a furler so that's a different game.
 
#38 ·
Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0

The question about furler for Asymmetric and Code 0 has been raised in this thread.

I have a Facnor FX2500 with a AFX kit so I can use the same furler for both the Asymmetric and the Code 0.

This is the tack of my Code 0, the bowsprit is in it short position, also notice the bobstay (adjustable) to deal with the extra load of the Code 0


This is the Asymetric on the furler with the AFX (the torsion stiff rope is the black rope going from the furler.
In this picture the tack is eased to get the luff to windward because we sail almost DDW.
The tack has to be hauled in before furling
The Facnor system use a central furling line attached half way up the luff going to the torsion stiff rope. I have no experience with the top down furler - but I will try next summer (I only have to disable the top swivel with a dyneema lashing to convert)


In this picture the have use the spinnaker boom and a afterguy to get the sail to windward - less wind than i the previous picture so that helped fill the sail.
 
#41 ·
Re: Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0

The Facnor system use a central furling line attached half way up the luff going to the torsion stiff rope. I have no experience with the top down furler - but I will try next summer (I only have to disable the top swivel with a dyneema lashing to convert)
Just curious, how would one "disable" the top swivel to convert your present system to a top-down furler?

Seems to me the only way these top-down systems work, is to have the dedicated bottom furling drum, where the tack attachment swivels independently of the torsion line... What am I missing, here?

Nice looking boat, btw.... What is she?
 
#39 · (Edited)
I see. So ur basically setting up like u would the symmetrical spinnaker, except you have one extra line, the tack line. (Foregut/after guy is the same as guy and spin sheet, right?)

Sort of eliminates the point of a cruising assymetrical though, which is to simplify downwind sailing. By the time I set this up for my cruiser, I might as well just throw up the symmetric and have less complication to deal with!

Still, it allows deeper angles for those with asyms so it's cool in that sense. Eliminates the only advantage that symmetrical kites hav on the race course. I haven't seen one flown off a pole yet at the race course, but maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough. maybe I should pretend I invented the technique ;-)
 
#40 ·
I see. So ur basically setting up like u would the symmetrical spinnaker, except you have one extra line, the tack line. (Foreguy/after guy is the same as guy and spin sheet, right?)
I have a usual spinnaker boom setup for dip poole gybe. (Topping lift, Foreguy/downhaul and Pole heel lift)

There are six lines on the sail;
The four standard lines for asymmetric (halyard, adjustable tack, sheet x 2 rigged for outside gybe)
+ guys x 2 attached to the tack (the furler in my case).
Sort of eliminates the point of a cruising asymmetrical though, which is to simplify downwind sailing. By the time I set this up for my cruiser, I might as well just throw up the symmetric and have less complication to deal with!
Don't know if I agree with you.
Setting the asymmetric.
-clip furler onto tack line & guy's (use soft shacles to attach guy's so they can also be rigged after the sail i set)
-clip on halyard
-From cockpit
-Tighten tack (done by hand) to pull the furler out on the end of the bowsprit
-Hoist
-Unfurl while taking in on active sheet

If I need to use the spinnaker pole (normally light conditions DDW).
-set spinnaker boom on mast
-Put the windward guy in the jaw if the spinnaker pole
-Adjust Topping lift & Foreguy
-Winch in on guy while easing tack

To gybe (can do the hole gybe w/o leaving the cockpit)
-ease the guy while winching the tack tight (cabin top winch)
-Stabilize the spinnaker boom using Foreguy & topping lift
-Execute a standard outside gybe
-rest pole if needed on new tack.

I use this for cruising, seldom sail straight lines - normally I sail different courses with the asymmetric up.
So this give me a wider usable angle in which I can use the asymmetric.
-No need to switch between spinnaker/asymmetric
-On less sail to carry and spend money on
-Fore deck work with boom only when I need/want it

Still, it allows deeper angles for those with asyms so it's cool in that sense. Eliminates the only advantage that symmetrical kites hav on the race course. I haven't seen one flown off a pole yet at the race course, but maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough. maybe I should pretend I invented the technique ;-)
As i wrote i previous post, there are short hand racers around here who use it for racing.

One reason you haven't seen it on the race course can be
-rating rules
-type of racing (windward / leeward favor symmetrical)
 
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