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  #21  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
Indefinitely and will outlast the human race...... LOL. It certainly not biodegradable.
Yes, like anything that its worth preserving. Like a car or an airplane with time parts and pieces degrade and after many years little or nothing will remain from the original boat/car/airplane.

The question here is: It will deserve to be preserved for posterity as a part of human naval patrimony? If so costs are not taking into consideration if not all things, between them boats reach a point where the value of what you invest to maintain them is bigger than the resale value they have and maintain them it will no longer be a logical operation.

That's why cars are dumped away. Most of them would not have any problem to keep going if repaired. It is just not worth it.

I guess that one of the reasons that will lead to the disappearance of many old boats on the US will be the raise of costs to maintain a boat, I mean raising costs in Marinas restrictions to having a boat permanently moored on public waters. That has already happened in Europe and I guess it is happening in the US.

If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.

The exception, like in the cars or airplanes it will be the ones that are maintained almost exclusively by their owners but that implies a huge knowledge in many areas and they have to pay for the materials anyway and the spaces were they are allowed to work on the boats are becoming scarce.

Also, some can do it, but while they are doing it, they are not sailing and that has also a value since boats can live forever but not us

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-01-2013 at 11:11 AM.
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

I know here in NJ a lot of the marinas have been converted to Condos.. I understand that Florida is even worse.

Thankfully up here.. I have friends with waterside homes that rent out dockspace.. so I can get a good deal when I finally get my liveaboard.

your talk on cars is a good one though. I drive an older car. A 1987 Saab 900 Turbo to be exact. it is in near perfect shape (it could use a new coat of black paint) and is just as reliable as anything new (if not more) and is easily repairable if something were to break... but I have put several orders of purchase price into the car to get it to that stage. Not many people are willing to do that.. even the people that go.. "oh! I have not seen one of those on the road in ages!"
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Last edited by mad_machine; 02-01-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Like anything, a boat will last as long as someone is willing to pay for the upkeep. I have raced aboard a century old wooden boat and spent the night aboard a wooden ship built in the 1840s. In both cases the hulls were reinforced by laminating over them with epoxy-soaked wood strips.
IMHO the basic hull of a fiberglass boat will be good for a century or three or maybe forever if she is a solid glass boat. For a cored boat - YMMV.

Right now a lot of airplanes die because they end up being worth more as scrap and parts than airplanes.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, like anything that its worth preserving. Like a car or an airplane with time parts and pieces degrade and after many years little or nothing will remain from the original boat/car/airplane.

The question here is: It will deserve to be preserved for posterity as a part of human naval patrimony? If so costs are not taking into consideration if not all things, between them boats reach a point where the value of what you invest to maintain them is bigger than the resale value they have and maintain them it will no longer be a logical operation.

That's why cars are dumped away. Most of them would not have any problem to keep going if repaired. It is just not worth it.

I guess that one of the reasons that will lead to the disappearance of many old boats on the US will be the raise of costs to maintain a boat, I mean raising costs in Marinas restrictions to having a boat permanently moored on public waters. That has already happened in Europe and I guess it is happening in the US.

If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.

The exception, like in the cars or airplanes it will be the ones that are maintained almost exclusively by their owners but that implies a huge knowledge in many areas and they have to pay for the materials anyway and the spaces were they are allowed to work on the boats are becoming scarce.

Also, some can do it, but while they are doing it, they are not sailing and that has also a value since boats can live forever but not us

Regards

Paulo

I have to disagree to some extent

The buyer of a New BOAT takes a killer hit in depreciation

My Cal 29 performs the same as always PHRF 184 something which is pretty MUCH the same as any brand new cruising boat with a 24' LWL

In fact there are some insanely expensive trendy day-sailors in the 29' range with 20 LWL that are SLOW

I sail with plenty of people that race and have funds we can only dream of and they stay with J44 programs because they done a great job in are area and there not hung up on owning the latests and greatest


No matter the marina cost my day on the water is exactly the same for Far less money
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
I have to disagree to some extent

The buyer of a New BOAT takes a killer hit in depreciation

My Cal 29 performs the same as always PHRF 184 something which is pretty MUCH the same as any brand new cruising boat with a 24' LWL

In fact there are some insanely expensive trendy day-sailors in the 29' range with 20 LWL that are SLOW

I sail with plenty of people that race and have funds we can only dream of and they stay with J44 programs because they done a great job in are area and there not hung up on owning the latests and greatest


No matter the marina cost my day on the water is exactly the same for Far less money
Who is talking about new boats? Not me. I am just saying that you will only have a boat till it starts to become too expensive to maintain it comparing with tossing it away and having another more recent used boat till the same happens to that one. Same thing with cars.

Unless that boat has a value by itself, I mean if it is unique or some kind of naval patrimony and in that case money does not enter in the equation...same thing with cars. Some old cars worth a lot more than new ones, but that is not what we are talking about unless you are talking about an old rare classic with a big intrinsic value no matter its condition.

Regarding PHRF concerning a 29ft boat I am sure the Cal 29 was a fast boat for its day (PHRF 184), a performance cruiser. But good modern performance cruisers are way faster. It seems that there are very few of them in the US. I tried to find the PHRF of the Dehler 29 without success, not Even a First 30 (new generation). The only small modern fast cruiser I could find was the A31 that has a PHRF of 111. I know that it is two feet longer and I guess the Dehler 29 will have a PHRF about half way between the A31 and your boat. Anyway I am sure it will be way faster.

http://www.phrfne.org/page/567

Most European cruisers start their line at 30/32ft and it is hard to find a 29ft.

Have a look at how those boats sail, I mean A31 and company.

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Performance...5e4034755e1154

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-01-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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  #26  
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

yes and no.. something old and well kept is always going to have some value. Even the lowliest Cape Dory Typhoon will someday be worth a lot as they slowly disappear over the years.
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  #27  
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

A comparable modern boat would be something in Catalina's line


If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.


It could be a translation thing but I really do not understand your POV

My old boats performance is still comparative to any apples to apples modern boat and it keeps a value consistent with it cost of upkeep

To go faster is to just go faster it does not change the pleasure of time on the water






We collect plenty of top finishes by team work and good racing decisions rather than moden and on a really good day just plain win outright regardless of handicap and we have had many overall wins that have caused great dismay to modern boats
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Last edited by tommays; 02-01-2013 at 08:26 PM.
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  #28  
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If you pay a significant amount of money to have a boat at the marina it makes no sense having a boat with almost no commercial value and one where you have to invest regularly considerable amounts of money to maintain it seaworthy. Lot's of money anyway for having an old boat that will perform poorly if compared with a modern one.


Paulo
So you are saying that old boats should be scrapped because they are worthless, slow, and require a lot of maintance?

In a truely logical world.. that would have led to the HMS victory, the USS Enterprise, and just about any boat older than 20 years being removed from the water (or drydock in the case of the Victory) and being cut up and their few worthwhile parts being recycled into the newest glassfibre thing to make a splash on the ocean.

Sorry.. I do not buy it. Like I said, I have an old saab that is now 26 years old.. it looks and runs almost like new.. but because it is old, slower than the newest camry, and requires more maintance than anything built in this decade, it should go to the crusher? I am just not that logical.. and I am also that cheap. It is less expensive for me to keep my old saab running than it is to buy something equivilant (the last new saabs were in the 30 and 40k range) and that goes the same for boats.

Maintance may cost a lot.. but overall it is cheaper than a loan payment..
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  #29  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_machine View Post
So you are saying that old boats should be scrapped because they are worthless, slow, and require a lot of maintance?

In a truely logical world.. that would have led to the HMS victory, the USS Enterprise, and just about any boat older than 20 years being removed from the water (or drydock in the case of the Victory) and being cut up and their few worthwhile parts being recycled into the newest glassfibre thing to make a splash on the ocean.

Sorry.. I do not buy it. Like I said, I have an old saab that is now 26 years old.. it looks and runs almost like new.. but because it is old, slower than the newest camry, and requires more maintance than anything built in this decade, it should go to the crusher? I am just not that logical.. and I am also that cheap. It is less expensive for me to keep my old saab running than it is to buy something equivilant (the last new saabs were in the 30 and 40k range) and that goes the same for boats.

Maintance may cost a lot.. but overall it is cheaper than a loan payment..
I have to agree with you here in a way... the older boats don't need to be destroyed for the sake of age... rather the upkeep does not merit the time of younger sailors getting into sailing to restore and revive... some do and will restore and keep a good vessel afloat... like cars and airplanes and yes it takes money... case in point I have several Italian cars that while aren't the latest Ferrari's or Maserati's... they have their own value and same upkeep as anything on wheels or afloat... here is my favorite in my collection... others are in the garage for safe keeping of course...

clocks.html

The Pantera is my friends car and we both take our cars to shows... I've been given a 'blank check' for my car at car shows and it puts a smile on my face but no dice... not for sale at any price... this coming from a guy driving a Porsche Cayenne...

Nick
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad_machine View Post
So you are saying that old boats should be scrapped because they are worthless, slow, and require a lot of maintance?

.... ocean.

Sorry.. I do not buy it. Like I said, I have an old saab that is now 26 years old.. it looks and runs almost like new.. but because it is old, slower than the newest camry, and requires more maintance than anything built in this decade, it should go to the crusher? I am just not that logical.. and I am also that cheap. It is less expensive for me to keep my old saab running than it is to buy something equivilant (the last new saabs were in the 30 and 40k range) and that goes the same for boats.

Maintance may cost a lot.. but overall it is cheaper than a loan payment..
Jesus, I am not saying that. I am saying that it will come a day were it happens. 10 years from know, 20 years form know. 50? 100? I don't know but it will happen unless your boat has an intrinsic value that comes not from function. One day it will come that it will be less expensive to toss it away than to maintain it and the same it would happen to your Saab. I don't see where is the doubt.

Regards

Paulo
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