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  #31  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
A comparable modern boat would be something in Catalina's line

....
My old boats performance is still comparative to any apples to apples modern boat ...
...
..
No, your boat was when it was designed a performance cruiser and a very good one, not diferent in design criteria from the Cal 39, its big sister:

Launched in 1978, the Cal 39..was a genuine performance cruiser before there really was such an animal.

Cal 39

Cal Yachts (aka Jensen Marine) was a manufacturer of performance oriented fiberglass sailboats from the 1960s to the 1980s. ..


It was so advances to its time that it can still stand face to some slow 30ft cruisers like the Catalina 30. In fact the Catalina 30 is also an old design in what refers hull: It is a 1974 design.

"The Catalina 30 .. first produced in 1974 by the Catalina Yachts Company in California.. has been through three revisions:
Mark I - Produced from 1975 to 1986
Mark II - Produced from September 1986 until 1993
Mark III - Produced from 1993 to 2006 (replaced by the C309).
All three revisions refer largely to revisions of the cockpit, rather than the hull itself..The Catalina 30 was the largest and longest continuous production keel boat in the world, with over 6,500 hulls produced. In 2001 it was inducted to the American Sailboat Hall of Fame."



No, your boat that was as when it was designed a very fast boat, a performance cruiser, should be compared with modern performance cruisers and not with slow cruisers with hulls designed 40 years ago. In what regards comparison with modern performance 30fts your boat is much slower, no doubt about that.

I have no doubt that you are a very good sailor and winning races on compensated time has to do with that. In what regards winning in real time it only means that you are not racing against modern performance 30fts. In fact it seems they don't exist in the US. I cannot find their PHRF racing, not a single one, except that A31 and that is quite amazing and reveals the American love for old boats

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-02-2013 at 07:23 AM.
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  #32  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

It is a Cal 29 and as of 2011 was found to meet current safety standards and it is certainly going to last the rest of my life without issue

General Summary/Risk Assessment/Values: This boat was found to be well constructed originally, and it has not suffered any major damage or repairs. The basic structure of the boat – the hull, deck, and interior, is sound. The foredeck has been largely rebuilt to correct a delamination condition. The work has been well done. The standing rigging is all new., and the mast and sails are in good condition. The engine, fuel and exhaust systems have all been rebuilt or replaced. The hull has been repainted. There are still some cosmetic upgrades to be made to the interior. In general, the boat has benefited from a knowledgeable and conscientious owner. If the recommendation is followed I would consider it to be an acceptable risk. :



We have all kinds and i have friends with modern



And friends still sailing 6 meters both classic and modern


You don't really understand sailing in America as well kept old boats are held in high regard
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Last edited by tommays; 02-02-2013 at 07:31 AM.
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  #33  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
It is a Cal 29 ..


....
You don't really understand sailing in America as well kept old boats are held in high regard
Yes, I understand Americans like more old boats than European, specially in what regards racing but I was only talking about performance regarding old and new designs.

The boat you posted (Cal 39) is certainly a great design and was a fast performance cruiser in its time but if we compare it with a modern performance cruiser, like the J 122 or the First 40 the difference is huge, like a PHRF of 108 to one of 36. In fact most modern mass production cruisers with 39/40ft are faster than the Cal (that was a performance cruiser) and some a lot faster. Maybe that's why Americans tend to call performance cruisers to all modern boats.

I understand that sail performance it is not all in a sailboat but it is certainly a factor to consider when you chose an old one over a new one.

But that is not the point, the point is that the ones that are today new ones will in time be old ones and with a worst performance regarding future boats. For them it will also comes the the day where they would be ditched out too.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-02-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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  #34  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy56 View Post
I case in point I have several Italian cars that while aren't the latest Ferrari's or Maserati's... they have their own value and same upkeep as anything on wheels or afloat... here is my favorite in my collection... others are in the garage for safe keeping of course...

clocks.html

Nick
ah.. the (in)famous veglia clock cloud... I have had a string of Fiat 124 Spider.. from 74 through 78. Love those cars. I sold my last one when I got back into sailing... I just was not using her like I should have been.. so I sold her off to an enthusiast friend who occasionally lets me take her out
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  #35  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

As much as I have always liked the Cals of that era, and the 29 was blazing fast for its day, in fairness when compared to a Laser 28 with a PHRF of 129 or J-30 at 135, it is not especially fast in relative terms.

By the same token, I agree with you point that the enjoyment of racing is not about relative speed. I really get a kick out of racing old technology, whether it is a Cal 25, a gaff rigger, or a J-22. The thrill and the winners circle goes to a well sailed boat.

But as cruisers, the faster boat will still have shorter passage times and may be easier to handle.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
I have to disagree to some extent

The buyer of a New BOAT takes a killer hit in depreciation

My Cal 29 performs the same as always PHRF 184 something which is pretty MUCH the same as any brand new cruising boat with a 24' LWL

In fact there are some insanely expensive trendy day-sailors in the 29' range with 20 LWL that are SLOW

I sail with plenty of people that race and have funds we can only dream of and they stay with J44 programs because they done a great job in are area and there not hung up on owning the latests and greatest


No matter the marina cost my day on the water is exactly the same for Far less money
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  #36  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Hey, Jeff, thanx for the very articulate info on old fiberglass ... sobering to realize how exactly you've described our 1980 CSY in that summary. This is supposed to be our 'forever' boat. Sigh.
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  #37  
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
Hey, Jeff, thanx for the very articulate info on old fiberglass ... sobering to realize how exactly you've described our 1980 CSY in that summary. This is supposed to be our 'forever' boat. Sigh.
Thank you for the kind words. I would not get discouraged.

Here is the thing about a boat like yours,she functions well for your needs and is structurally suitable for how you are likely to use her. Boats like yours will remain functional and useful long after the latest performance cruiser or race boat becomes relatively functionally obsolete.

The down side is that the market for boats like yours ( i.e. quite small, older, live aboard cruisers which sail half way decently) is comparatively small, and it is that alone would tend to hold the price down quite a bit. On the other hand, when you sell a boat, you are only looking for one buyer, and the right buyer may pay more than the average buyer for a well equipped small cruiser in decent shape since that is precisely what that particalar buyer is looking for.

But in the end, like most things in life, it is how well your boat suits your needs. In the 1970's my dad and I owned an old wooden boat together. Most decent sailing days, I would get home from work, peel off my work clothes and run down to the boat for an evenings sail. We had bought that old girl for something like $2500. There was an older man in the next slip who sailed with me often. His boat was worth 30-40 times what Indian was worth.

One day he commented that for our meager investment, we enjoyed the water no less than he did. And that gets to the heart of this discussion. As long as your expectations are reasonable, then there is nothing wrong with owning an older boat

Where I often disagree with the court of public opinion is that not all used boats are made equal, nor are they always as good as the court portrays them, or sail as well as other, better designed, equal age boats, or for that matter, are seaworthy as better designed equal age boats. I my usual criticisms, I try to point out the relative merit of these boats and urge folk to make reasonably informed decisions and if they are going to go through the work to restore a boat, then buy the best design that they can, since it takes little or no more work to restore a junky design than a really nice one.

So enjoy your boat, take the value out of the joy she gives you, and do not worry about the rest.
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 02-02-2013 at 02:56 PM. Reason: typos galore
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  #38  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Thanx Jeff. I sincerely hope that the resale value of our boat will be of interest only to our heirs.
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  #39  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarguy56 View Post
I have to agree with you here in a way... the older boats don't need to be destroyed for the sake of age... rather the upkeep does not merit the time of younger sailors getting into sailing to restore and revive... some do and will restore and keep a good vessel afloat... like cars and airplanes and yes it takes money... case in point I have several Italian cars that while aren't the latest Ferrari's or Maserati's... they have their own value and same upkeep as anything on wheels or afloat... here is my favorite in my collection... others are in the garage for safe keeping of course...

clocks.html

The Pantera is my friends car and we both take our cars to shows... I've been given a 'blank check' for my car at car shows and it puts a smile on my face but no dice... not for sale at any price... this coming from a guy driving a Porsche Cayenne...

Nick
Fix It Again Tony. Very nice 124. The Italians sure made a nicer MGB than the Brits.

The comparison to old cars here is valid I think. There are some very shrewd people in Arizona and other dry places that have junkyards full of old cars that they sell to restorers. The unrusted shell of a 60's Mustang is now worth much more than the car cost new. It's reached the point where restorers are even doing 4 doors once they get old enough.

Since glass boats don't rust, the same can be done with them, only a whole lot easier. As boats become less beautiful and more and more soulless, I think the old hulls will eventually get the same care lavished on them.

John Huston had a great line in Chinatown - "Of course I'm respectable, I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough".

Old cars & boats too I think.
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  #40  
Old 02-02-2013
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Re: Life Span of a Boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
...

Here is the thing about a boat like yours,she functions well for your needs and is structurally suitable for how you are likely to use her. Boats like yours will remain functional and useful long after the latest performance cruiser or race boat becomes relatively functionally obsolete.

...
It all depends how the boat is used and how hard it is sailed. There is some similitude with other machines. Some days ago I knew that one enduro racing motorcycle that I bought new in 1992 and raced for three seasons was still around and was being repaired to be given as a gift to the soon of the guy that bought it to me. The Motorcycle still has the same suspension and engine.

I sold the motorcycle back in 1995 because it needed a new engine and a new suspension, I mean for the kind and intensity of use I gave to the motorcycle. That would be so expensive that it would make more sense to sell it and have a new one

I was just a medium rider. A top rider would have sold the motorcycle at the end of a season. With the old bike he would not be competitive against top riders with new improved motorcycles.

In Europe we have also that kind of market for performance boats that seems not to exist in the US. I mean if a fast boat is not competitive anymore and I am talking of boats with 5 or 6 years, than the ones that use the boat to compete at a high level will sell it to buy a more competitive one and I am not talking about racers but about performance cruisers that race on ORCI or IRC.

That's a good way of buying an almost new boat at a discount price

If a boat is used for living and light coastal sailing the demands on the boat would not be the same as a boat that is used extensively for cruising and offshore sailing. A boat used like that can last a long time without the need of expensive structural refits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
.
The comparison to old cars here is valid I think. There are some very shrewd people in Arizona and other dry places that have junkyards full of old cars that they sell to restorers. The unrusted shell of a 60's Mustang is now worth much more than the car cost new. It's reached the point where restorers are even doing 4 doors once they get old enough.

Since glass boats don't rust, the same can be done with them, only a whole lot easier. As boats become less beautiful and more and more soulless, I think the old hulls will eventually get the same care lavished on them.

John Huston had a great line in Chinatown - "Of course I'm respectable, I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough".

Old cars & boats too I think.
Yes, except that is not happening with all the cars, I mean being valuable and worth of restoring but just to a few precious few, the ones that have an iconic value. I guess the same will happen to the boats, I mean, not to all boats but just to a few iconic ones.

Regarding fiberglass, it will not rust but will degrade, as Jeff has explained previously.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-02-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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