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my boat dances on a ball

7K views 48 replies 27 participants last post by  downeast450 
#1 ·
Apparently my 46 Vision from Bavaria has a bad habit. She like to dance around on moorings.Not sure exactly what the deal is but she comes up on the ball. (long story, bought boat, put her in charter, so popular it's hard for me to get time). I'll be one her in two weeks. :D:D:D:D

Apparently running port/starboard line through pennant has been tried. setting helm hard port/starboard has been tried. Currently thinking a drogue , sea anchor.

any thoughts? I know, just run the engine all night and have it in a gentle reverse :cool:
 
#3 ·
Stern-to. Center of pressure (wind) will be farther "aft" (the new aft - bow of the boat which is now the end away from the bouy) causing things to steady out. Has worked well for me but I've never done it longer than overnight.

Obviously this won't always be a good idea even if it works, considering how the mooring line will ride off the stern, weather, idiots in the moorage freaked out by a boat moored facing downwind, etc.
 
#5 ·
I think those are your two options... either a riding sail or mooring stern-to. Boats that 'sail' on the hook or the mooring can be a challenge...
 
#6 ·
I have thought about that. problem is she is a single backstay with a mast roller furl. I don't know if I have a spare halyard run. Probably don't want to drop the topping lift. Plus it has a VERY abundant Bimini.

I could rig a pulley up the backstay ~10 feet up if it turns out to be the only solution.
 
#11 ·
Do yourself a favor and install a Garhaurer rigid vang and re-reave your main topping lift as a spare main halyard. Someday you'll need it and in the mean time you have a solution to using a riding sail and, in future, a "Mainster" (once you learn a bit more about sailing).
 
#7 ·
My old Islander use to love to sail back and forth. Scared the crap out of anyone anchored near us.

Cheap small Triangle of sail ( ours was 4 Fft along the back stay, 6 feet the other leggs= 12 cu ft) with gromets on the three corners. One attached to a cleat on the single backstay above the bimini. One attachment point to the Boom. Sail pulled upright by final attachent point by the main halyard clipped thorugh the gromet . Since we always unclipped ours when anchored or moored it was available.

Our C&C is rock steady at anchor.
 
#8 ·
interesting. If she were a full keel boat, I would say she was dancing with the current and not the wind. As a fin keel.. I am not so sure.

I would never tie up to a mooring stern to. Boats are made to take waves on the bow, making them take them from the stern is just asking for getting swamped
 
#9 ·
...I would never tie up to a mooring stern to. Boats are made to take waves on the bow, making them take them from the stern is just asking for getting swamped
Getting swamped is a pretty low risk in a mooring field or in any harbour where mooring or anchoring is practical.

However stern-to may be unpleasant from other aspects... boats with flat counter will be noisy as wind driven ripples and waves 'chuckle' under the counter - and esp with todays' aft cabin boats that can be annoying. The breeze is going to get 'scooped' below by the dodger rather than acting as a windbreak - maybe a good thing in the tropics, not so much shoulder season in the PNW....
 
#10 ·
Happy boat!

I suspect that throwing a drogue is the easy button. that being said, a riding sail of some sort will end up as the solution.

I was out in a Bavaria 40 a few weeks ago, and experienced the same thing. My ~theory~ is that the hull is acting like an aerodynamic wing (yep, pilot in another life ). I suspect that both of the boats have similar profiles, both FARR designs. Plumb stern/bow, relatively flat hull under the water line, huge beam, limited cross section on the T-keel, coffee table rudder, and a rather large amount of real estate (sorry I don't know the term) from the water line to the deck. pictures abound of what I am talking about.

Needless to say, not a problem on an Island Packet....

of course "opinions and theories are like....everyone has one or two..."
 
#14 ·
Happy boat!

I was out in a Bavaria 40 a few weeks ago, and experienced the same thing. My ~theory~ is that the hull is acting like an aerodynamic wing (yep, pilot in another life ). I suspect that both of the boats have similar profiles, both FARR designs. Plumb stern/bow, relatively flat hull under the water line, huge beam, limited cross section on the T-keel, coffee table rudder, and a rather large amount of real estate (sorry I don't know the term) from the water line to the deck. pictures abound of what I am talking about.
I looked it up when the topic came up. Very modern looking boat with a very wide and wing shaped cabin that smoothly rises out of the foredeck and then smootly drops towards the stern. Would not surprise me if there was some aero effects going on
 
#13 ·
Do yourself a favor and install a Garhaurer rigid vang and re-reave your main topping lift as a spare main halyard. Someday you'll need it and in the mean time you have a solution to using a riding sail and, in future, a "Mainster" (once you learn a bit more about sailing).
Know that's some good info. I never thought to turn my topping lift into a additional main halyard.
 
#16 ·
you can also tie a line (rolling hitch) to your anchor rode, and run it back to a winch. If she dances, crank on the winch till she stops (sounds like the inquisition :eek:).
 
#21 · (Edited)
Bridling the anchor rode will work to head a yacht into waves in an anchorage where the waves and the wind are out of sync but if the yacht wants to sail off her furled headsail, bridling may allow her to fore reach, repeatedly sailing up to the side of her anchor and then falling off. This will work the anchor back and forth, weakening its set, and can be a real pain for other yachts sharing the anchorage. Some while ago we watched a fellow work himself a quarter mile down our river until we finally convinced him to set his storm jib backward, tacked to a stern cleat and free flying and sheeted forward, after which the yacht calmed down and laid quietly to her ground tackle An inexpensive riding sail is a simple, effective and wise investment.
 
#19 ·
My boat sails starts to sail at anchor when the wind is over 10 kts or so. A few remedies I've used:

- riding sail, hanked to the bakstay, hoisted with the spinnaker halyard.
- bridle, rigged from the rode to the mid or stern cleat.
- 15lb Kellet on the rode
- stern anchor, not set, but deployed to just drag on the bottom.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I am surprised that no one mentioned one of the main potential causes. Modern rig configurations have moved towards larger mainsails and smaller jibs which pushes the mast forward in the boat from where it might have been 20 years ago. The move to cabin top mounted mainsheets has added to that trend of pushing the rig forward. While the larger mainsail and smaller jib proportion is generally more aerodynamically efficient, and makes it usually easier to sail and shift gears with changing conditions, this tendancy to move the mast forward destabilizes the boat on the mooring. With the advent of in-mast furling spars have gotten much larger and that really aggrevates the situation providing lots more sail area.

On the other hand, I see kiting is a minor nuisance, but a nuisance just the same.

My own boat has a tendancy to kite pretty aggressively in the right conditions. On one notable occasion I saw almost a knot on the GPS.

I have several strategies to deal with this. While this option is not always available, I typically let out more rode than would typically be expected. I have tried skewing the boat (as suggested) and found that works reasonably well in some conditions (steady rather than gusty winds). I have removed the jib from the furler on occasion (tight anchorage and lots of wind) and that helped a lot, but then again it is pretty easy for me to drop and raise my jibs and I do it every time I come in so it is routine.

When I cannot let out much scope I use a kellet shackled to the (boat) end of the chain.

I made a small riding sail on my previous boat. It worked very well most of the time. I came up with a design that had a pocket in its forward and aft edges and I used PVC pipe to make battens so the sail would stay stable in shape. (If I made one again, I would use heavier fabric and use strops rather than pockets to make the battens more easily removeable.) I have seen riding sails which were triangular shape when seen from above, and I speculate that may be even more effective than the simple flat triangular sail I made.

Jeff
 
#22 ·
All very good advice given above. My own hole in the ocean tends to sail around its anchor or mooring as well. I don't have a riding sail (yet!) but have discovered that a small mushroom anchor off the stern with just enough scope to drag but not bury does a surprisingly good job a settling the boat down.

At anchor it doesn't bother me but I have had guests that get uncomfortable below with the motion which lead to the discovery of the mushroom anchor as a drag. Oddly enough my Catalina 310 is most jumpy in lighter wind, once it gets up over 10-15 knots it points into it (or slightly off) without sailing around much.
 
#23 ·
.... Oddly enough my Catalina 310 is most jumpy in lighter wind, once it gets up over 10-15 knots it points into it (or slightly off) without sailing around much.
The effect of your dodger as a riding sail finally comes into play.
 
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#24 ·
Every boat I've ever had sailed back and forth at anchor to some extent, both power and sail. I believe it is because of the freeboard. I plan to try a riding sail of some kind this season. My little Hunter 23.5 sails at anchor quite a bit. Thanks for the ideas of how to make and set the riding sails guys.

Kevin
 
#25 ·
Jeff H hit on having COE/CLR (center of effort/center of lateral resistance) moving forward with modern designs. My fractional rigged 30 fter. loves to "chafe at the bit" and have used to some
success in moderate conditions most of suggestions brought forth in posts above, most consistently successful with riding sail that is offset to toe rail.
Concern is the rare times, in extreme conditions...I believe that
reducing windage forward of the COE is the one best precaution
that can be taken to reduce extreme yawing and the most extreme
loads on your ground tackle. That means taking down the roller furled jib, (which for me at least, is very much counter intuitive
as once I had to deploy jib fast to claw off rocky shore when
motor quit.) ...IMHO
 
#27 ·
True, we've often seen ketches and yawls, esp, with mizzens up at anchor for that very reason.. however a flat riding sail will always be quieter, as it's not so prone to slatting as the wind flips from side to side compared with a 'shaped sail'.
 
#28 ·
I agree with Jeff_H for the source of the problem.

I have a lot of tools in my toolbox now. Thank you everyone!

The riding sail seems like the most effective solution, but there are some practicality issues on my boat. my bimini is HUGE, and we have the boat in a charter fleet ( this could be outside the capabilities of a CCC ).

Taking down the JIB is WAY more than I would ask/or want a charterer to attempt. additionally my Furlex is UNDER the deck.

Cocking the boat, either by cleat or winch seems the easiest.

Apparently, in the right wind, it scares the people in boats around it, she dances pretty quick!

again, thanks for the tools!
 
#29 ·
There are more than 200 boats on mooring balls where I'm currently docked, and the ONLY boats that tend to swing all over the place are those with fin keels. Those with full keels stay in place, face directly into the wind, no problems.

When I had a Catalina 27 with a fin keel, at anchor it was swinging wildly with the wind. A small stay-sail measuring just over 3 X 4 feet attached to the back stay solved the problem completely. Even during very high winds, and wild changes in the tide the boat was steady.

Gary :cool:
 
#30 ·
Depending on wind and current.. Full keel boats can go either way. With light air and heavy current, you will find them facing the current.. and vice versa with light current and heavy air.

Fin keel, Cats, and centerboarders always seem to follow the air. Can make for a lot of fun in an anchorage of mixed keels
 
#31 ·
I spend 2+ weeks on a Bavaria Vision 46 as the OP has and it was awful at anchor when there was a lot of wind. After a lot of experimenting, we came up with a few things that helped to make it much more pleasant.

First, we would roll the jib absolutely as tight as we could to try to reduce windage forward which is a really big problem as Jeff H describes.

Next, we would often use an anchor spring as some here have described to keep the boat sitting at an angle to the wind. We found that we had to have it 30 degrees plus to get it to behave which does significantly increase the windage but really lowers peak loads. In really bad conditions, this probably isn't an option.

As we did not have a drogue, we attached a bucket to the anchor chain as close to the boat as we could so that it would stay in the water. The idea here was to provide resistance to the bow moving around and prevent it from building up speed. I am waiting for someone to actually install a centerboard/daggerboard all the way forward for just this purpose.

Finally, in a few situations we idled the engine in reverse to keep the boat from surging forward.

One thing that we did not ever do but might be an option in bad situations is to set out a second anchor at a pretty large angle. This should help to keep the bow in one place more and limit the sailing.

I am really disappointed in how modern designs behave on the hook. Some are good but many are truly appalling and are not cruising boats in my opinion for this one reason, they are daysailors and dock queens. Getting the CLR and windage figured out should be part of the design process even if it involves making some compromises or having features (daggerboard forward for example) to help deal with it.
 
#32 ·
Thank you for the confirmation ( a subset of people in chat/reply have insinuated on over reacting/ F'ed up), if you were in the BVI, you were on mine.
We are trying to balance practicality vs convenience vs inexperience.

Cocking it is one option. surprised it would take 30 degrees.

we are kicking around an option of a drogue/sea anchor, set down by a mushroom.

I have noticed that several of the charterers are slipping.

rbt
 
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