Rudder lost at sea and rescue - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree56Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 03-01-2013
deniseO30's Avatar
Move over Joan Rivers!
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 6,051
Thanks: 51
Thanked 86 Times in 76 Posts
Rep Power: 9
deniseO30 will become famous soon enough deniseO30 will become famous soon enough
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

I hope I never know, what it's like but I don't think I will give up so easy as stated in the Captain's blog. There is plenty of stuff out there to help learn what to do without a rudder. again.. I just don't know. I'm not saying they should not of jumped ship without a try. They were even in touch with a wooden boat sailor but I'm sure would have some woodworking skills and tools and did offer to come to their aid. Minds are often lost in difficult situations.


L1 TECHNIQUES and MANEUVERS - Reefing, Sailing without a centerboard or rudder
Sailing without a rudder
The basic principle of sailing rudderless is to use the effects of sails and boat balance to steer. You'll find it much easier to do if you reduce the number of variables to a minimum.

1. Tell your crew to sit motionless on the boat's centerline and well forward, only moving if you decided.
2. Knot the jib sheets together to make them easier to handle and if you are sailing in light winds, reduce the number of purchases in the mainsheet for more positive control.
3. Raise the centerboard by a third to move the center of lateral resistance aft. This will reduce the sensitivity of the boat to your movements

Sail to a clear stretch of water then, with mainsheet in one hand and jib sheets in the other, you're ready to start. Begin on a reach and find out how changes in sail trim affect the course sailed.

Every type of boat responds differently, but you'll find that the mainsail has far more effect in causing the boat to luff than the jib has in helping to bear away, hence the centerboard position.

You will also find that sheeting in the mainsail alone will be enough to make you tack, but that bearing away will require the combined effect of the jib and windward heel. With practice, you will be able to handle the boat on any point of sailing.

To a distant observer, it should appear that the rudder is still in place, so positive is the boat handling. You should have no difficulty in either sailing to windward, tacking or gybing.

Youtube;



Rudderless Drill
Rudderless Drill
Reprinted from "Fundamentals of Sailing, Cruising, & Racing" by Steve Colgate; published by W.W. Norton & Co.
Another drill one hopes never to have to use is sailing without a rudder. Though you may sail 20 years without loosing your rudder at sea, it could happen your first time out. You can control the direction of the boat by changing the efficiency of the sails fore and aft. By luffing the jib and trimming the main, we create weather helm and the boat turns into the wind. By luffing the main and flattening the jib, the wind pushes the bow to leeward - in other words, lee helm. To practice this, trim your jib reasonably flat and ease your mainsail until the boat is balanced and sails straight ahead when the helm is released. Then change your course by trimming the main to head up and pushing the boom out to fall off. When the bow starts swinging in one direction, you must immediately begin the opposite procedures to counteract the swing.....
wind_magic, davidpm and RealST like this.
__________________
Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club. New Website!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

my current "project"!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 03-01-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,437
Thanks: 0
Thanked 116 Times in 103 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

I believe any of those who seem to feel that they could have simply "balanced the sails", and continued on to their destination is grossly underestimating the challenge they faced... They had only just begun one of the most boisterous tradewinds passages in the world, one that routinely busts up gear on even some of the best-found and most well-prepared boats... That particular crew, on that particular boat, seemed to not be up to such a task, and in my estimation probably made the right call to abandon... Or, in other words, that crew and that boat should have probably not been there to begin with - for a more capable, prepared, and resourceful crew might have gotten that boat to the Caribbean...

Hell, with sufficient provisioning and water, simply lying ahull would fetch you up somewhere, eventually... But in my estimation, the way to have dealt with such a situation would be to configure a twin headsail or twistle rig - which was the tradewinds rig of sailors like the Hisocks and Smeetons due to its inherent downwind self-steering capability, long before the advent of efficient, powerful autopilots, or the servo-pendulum windvane... Coupled with a drogue, that boat could have made steady, if not slow, progress towards the islands, at least until some form of steering assist might have been fashioned... One of the reasons I think a Jordan Series Drogue should be aboard any passagemaking boat, it would serve perfectly as a steering drogue, easily adjustable to suit the conditions...

A simple sloop rig like that CS, however, they probably did not have the gear to effect a twin headsail rig... Even a cutter rig should carry 2 poles, IMHO, to better configure something close to a twin rig, and such a prospect in lighter air is a good argument in favor of having a Code 0, as well...

I think this incident is a decent argument in favor of windvane steering, as well... Some units - like Scanmar's Monitor or the Hydrovane, can easily be modified to serve as an emergency rudder...

With some sort of twin head rig - a sail configuration that tends to PULL a boat downwind, rather than PUSHING it - that boat likely would have been saved...

Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 03-02-2013
caberg's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 574
Thanks: 0
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 3
caberg is on a distinguished road
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Lets hope they do a better job of critical thinking flying your plane than this as it appears not only did you miss the most critical evidence IMHO you felt the need to belittle others opinions with arrogance, which is not necessary, and may prevent the educational experience for others who may want to express an opinion.
Ha! I love hypocrisy. At it's finest right here.
Shinook likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 03-02-2013
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,929
Thanks: 29
Thanked 56 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by caberg View Post
Ha! I love hypocrisy. At it's finest right here.
Yes typical response, point back to be..so how does that relate to what youd did. Your the only defense when you get found out is to point the fingers back. Difference between us is that i readily admit how I am. Must be nice to be sanctimonius and thing of yourself better than that, but you arent. Your right there down in the mud with me

Just dont try it in a court or when flying your plane. That defense wont hold up

Your honor...lets not talk about what I did...others are also doing it...in fact you do it so you have no right to say anything to me about it.

Again to me, IMHO you missed my point. While you praised the Captain I have doubts about him. That being his crew appeared to be unexperienced to face a journey that he was taking.

In case you didnt notice I changed my mind as I read more I changed my mind about him leaving his vesel when it wasnt sinking. Thank god he abandoned ship, he may have killed everyone eventually with that kind of inexperienced crew should problems arisen in really tough conditions. Someday we may refer to those who venture forth thinking they can conquer all with an inexperience crew the " Bounty Syndrome"

Having crossed the Atlantic only twice in my life in a sailboat ( I was in my early 20s). Both times the experience was daunghting. The first time I had no experience but the other 5 had plenty of it so that we were never shorthanded or lacking when the weather got rougher. The conditions were fairly begnin for the 20 days passage, yet still for my experience level I learned a huge amount about open ocean sailing every day.

Part of what I learned is that you cannot depend on being rescued and that the crew and you have to be resourceful enough to survive situations either to pull through or be rescued.

Even the second time I was the least experienced of the 6 and had a better understanding of what the passage entailed, we hit some rougher weather 1600 miles northwest of the Azores for 3 days. Seas of 20-25 frt and winds steady at 30. It was somewhat frightening to me even tough we were "safe" on our boat to look around me. The confidence which I had in experience of the rest of those around me gave me a great sense of security.

Even today 35 years later, I would not take a passage across the Atlantic Ocean with a crew of 4 in which only the Captain and I had any previous ocean experience to handle the situations which WILL or MIGHT occur. Half your crew of 4 with no experience. One wanting to bail after 1 day out.

The Captain should never have left, or should have turned around when two of his crew wanted off not pressed on. warning signs should have gone off, but no he pressed on. He was fortunate that this rudder failed ( for whatever reason) so he could safely get off the boat in begnin conditions. Another point...his rudder failed before and he didnt have a way to overcome the failure and called for help, What did he learn from that? Nothing apparently.
No though about a backup rudder or plan for steerage should it happen again.
Which it did,

He took a risk, with his wife and these two "passangers" that I would not be willing to take. Borders on reckless.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 03-02-2013
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,145
Thanks: 3
Thanked 62 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 9
killarney_sailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaviGsr View Post
Did the folks saying they should have stayed with the boat miss this part of the account?

The boat was heading in a north, north east direction, the opposite of where we wanted to go, we were over 600 nautical miles from Mindelo, our departure point and that would have been against wind and waves. The Canaries would have been our closest landfall, but it was nearly 1300 miles away and we were only doing 1.5 knots, a very long time to get there.

I have never been on a boat that lost a rudder. I hope I never will. But I've met people who have, including two guys who sailed 150 miles back to land using a drogue. It's pretty far from a cakewalk and doubtful they would have been able to keep a normal watch schedule.

Even if they were to better their boat speed and still hold a fairly stead course they would be adding, what, two weeks to a passage through an area with few options for rescue?

Whoever said the skipper made the correct call by putting life before property was absolutely right. I'm glad the weather was calm. Effecting a rescue in good conditions kept everyone safe.
I think I have to put myself in the don't leave the boat camp. If it were my wife and I, I would imagine we would make an effort to get somewhere and downwind would be the direction to go. I have to think you could manage two plus knots in a fairly controlled manner, at least close enough to get towed in. You mention that it would take two extra weeks -- so? When you leave on a passage you typically have lots of food onboard. As for water, this is a part of the ocean where afternoon showers happen pretty often. The comfort level might go down, but survival is not an issue.

Who said there were few options for rescue? This is a pretty busy piece of ocean compared to some. I think the couple came to feel overwhelmed and I certainly can understand how this can happen. But an overlooked part of passage-making is psychological preparedness, how resilient are you when it all hits the fan. I am not sure how you assess this and I am not sure how you improve it. Note, that I am not saying you can't improve in this regard, just not sure how.
chef2sail and smurphny like this.
__________________
Finished the circumnavigation in early February in Grenada. Have to work on a book project for the next several months so the boat will be waiting for next year.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 03-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 294
Thanks: 7
Thanked 19 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Shinook is on a distinguished road
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
Who said there were few options for rescue?
From the post:

Quote:
We were told that the area did not have a lot of shipping, and the vast majority of sailboats leaving either the Canaries or Cape Verde had already departed and our chances were pretty slim of being intercepted by either pleasure or commercial craft, but said he would get the word out through GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress and Safety System)
I don't think survival is the issue. Sure they could have survived, but what's the difference in risk levels between abandoning ship and continuing the trip without a rudder? Is it REALLY worth it?

If their only option was to continue, I'm sure they would have survived, there have been plenty of incidents where people in this same situation have either jury rigged a rudder or survived without. I don't really think survival is the issue, but the level of risk they assumed changed when their rudder broke.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 03-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,998
Thanks: 5
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 11
wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinook View Post
I don't think survival is the issue. Sure they could have survived, but what's the difference in risk levels between abandoning ship and continuing the trip without a rudder? Is it REALLY worth it?

If their only option was to continue, I'm sure they would have survived, there have been plenty of incidents where people in this same situation have either jury rigged a rudder or survived without. I don't really think survival is the issue, but the level of risk they assumed changed when their rudder broke.
But shouldn't a cruiser have some idea what they are going to do as a backup before they ever leave port ? These things do happen, hulls get holed or stopcocks start leaking, engines stop working, sails get ripped, masts fall down, boats lose electricity and electronics, and rudders break. Should any of those things automatically mean leaving the boat ? These are the kinds of things that have happened throughout the history of sailing, do you sacrifice your entire boat just because the rudder is screwed up ?

I'm not saying it'll work, that any backup plan will work, but it seems like we should all have some idea what we're going to do if those kinds of things happen, something we can try, right ? Or is it just, hey, we've got insurance, hit the EPIRB!
__________________
What are you pretending not to know ?

Please support my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 03-02-2013
Bristol 45.5 - AiniA
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,145
Thanks: 3
Thanked 62 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 9
killarney_sailor is on a distinguished road
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

When you leave shore you accept all risk associated with the venture not just those of a voyage that goes well.

Not a lot of shipping does not mean no shipping and the opposite of the vast majority is not zero sailboats. They made the decision to abandon within hours of the incident. It takes time to think about the situation and try various jury rigs. I also noted on the blog that they only considered going back and not carrying on, even though the winds and currents would suggest that going downwind would be much easier, even if further.

I seem to remember that there was another sailboat 2 1/2 days to windward that offered help. I can understand these people being totally fed up with their rudder problems and the criminally negligent work that had been done, but they owed the boat more. Just my opinion, but I think you would find that most experienced offshore cruisers would agree.
__________________
Finished the circumnavigation in early February in Grenada. Have to work on a book project for the next several months so the boat will be waiting for next year.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 03-02-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,804
Thanks: 55
Thanked 63 Times in 61 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

It just seems that more tenacity was in order before abandoning the boat but it's easy to armchair quarterback without really knowing all the details of their decision.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 03-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,998
Thanks: 5
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 11
wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about
Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
It just seems that more tenacity was in order before abandoning the boat but it's easy to armchair quarterback without really knowing all the details of their decision.
Totally agree, I don't know if I would be able to fix a problem like that at sea, and who knows what the situation was. Maybe they tried everything, there could have been a lot of things going wrong at once for all we know. With the boat moving seasickness makes it hard to fix anything too.

I have always been concerned about losing the rudder and have tried a few suggestions such as adjusting sail trim that I found here. I have no idea if I would be able to sail long distance without a rudder, but I hope that I could.

Here is a thread on this subject I started when I first joined Sailnet.

Making Passage w/o a Rudder

I'm sure it won't surprise anyone here to see who responded to that thread ... hellosailor, T34C, PBzeer, Faster, camaraderie, Giu, sway, Robert Gainer (Tartan34C), sailingdog, Zanshin, Boasun, and others.
__________________
What are you pretending not to know ?

Please support my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lost Rudder maineman Gear & Maintenance 17 10-11-2009 06:18 PM
lost rudder clifacs General Discussion (sailing related) 2 06-22-2009 07:18 AM
with all this lost rudder talk scottyt Gear & Maintenance 17 05-05-2009 06:53 PM
Dramatic rescue at sea for sailboat lost off of California coast - Cherry Creek News NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-03-2007 04:15 PM
Lost Rudder at Sea MarkAW Gear & Maintenance 0 08-22-2001 08:54 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:44 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.