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  #41  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post

Wondering, Killarney, what you and June have for a concrete 'backup' plan for this eventuality?
Not sure how concrete the plan is since we have not really experimented with it, but Ainia can be balanced very well, especially with the help of the centreboard. I would certainly be thinking of going downwind rather than trying to go back- you have 25+ miles of current as a starter. We have a Monitor but not the extra bit to use it as a rudder. There is not always the extra $1500 to buy everything. I think I could rig something to use the wheel to steer the vane's rudder, it is not very big, but it is far back. We always seem to have vast quantities of food onboard. June hates canned food and uses fresh as much as possible on a passage, but the canned stuff is there. I would imagine we could manage an extra two months and might take fishing a lot more seriously.

We had a steering cable break in the South Pacific, just a couple of weeks after I inspected the cables including unscrewing several inspection panels. The break of course was in the one place I could not get at to. We had spare cable with us and just had to figure out how best to effect the repair. Conditions were average with 15 knots of wind and 8 to 10 foot seas. First step was to get the boat in a stable situation with rudder quadrant jammed so it could not move. Then sit and think it all through, realizing that there was no rush. The repair took 10 hours as I remember. It really, really helps to know the boat intimately.

We cannot sit at our computers and pass judgement about what happened on this particular boat. I suspect the dynamic of an inexperienced captain and panicky crew were major contributors. What we can do is discuss in general is whether losing a rudder in this part of the ocean during this time of year is sufficient reason to abandon.
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  #42  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...The hard part, would be actually manually steering that boat with such a device for 1000 NM or more, in conditions boisterous enough to have broken the rudder to begin with... Clearly beyond the capability of this, and most other crews, unless it was simply lashed in a fixed position... Again, I think you may be seriously underestimating the challenging conditions that are likely to be encountered on this passage - you need to configure a setup to get the boat to do the heavy lifting, not the crew...
Exactly.

There's another elephant in the room in this "GPS Generation" argument that never really gets talked about: Most cruising sailors these days are old. Regardless of experience (for the most part) an undertaking of this magnitude (jury rigging and handling a rudderless boat for a month) is typically beyond what elderly sailors can pull off physically.

So you mix young inexperience with old fragility - this outcome makes a lot more sense.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 03-03-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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  #43  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

No we can't sit and pass judgement but the story is on the web and the links are there to read..and comment on.

Sadly, the little bit of writing on the Captain's blog seems like it was only started for the trip.

The few photos and lack of discussion about preparations for the trip just don't provide for much more then speculation. The "crew" was older and It seems from day one they all regretted being on the boat and wanted off.

Maine Sail apparently knows the owner of the abandoned boat and mentioned he's was a hands off type.

Message I've gleaned from the captain's blog?. "Eh.. it's broke bad now. me friends, they be whining and hating on me since they came aboard! Me go home on first ride me find" I quit! Me wanna go home!" (But I really don't know anything about the event)

Do salvage seekers chase boats left at sea? It would seem to quite a catch! that boat was loaded! (near as I could see) Also, the insurance already paid? Allot is missing from this story imho. Good thing no one was hurt or worse.
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  #44  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Wow, this has generated plenty of chatter about what shouda, coulda happened, skills, experience . . .

Bottom line is none of us were there, a good boat was lost, a full crew was saved, and hopefully everyone with any interest in going to sea has learned that there is not enough preplanning that can be done to be prepared for the worst.
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  #45  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Rugosa, Yes and because the crew and captain are safe we can go on with this at length. Things like this thread tend to drive the motors on internet forums. If there were death and injury involved, it would be very disrespectful imho
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  #46  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Exactly.

There's another elephant in the room in this "GPS Generation" argument that never really gets talked about: Most cruising sailors these days are old. Regardless of experience (for the most part) an undertaking of this magnitude (jury rigging and handling a rudderless boat for a month) is typically beyond what elderly sailors can pull off physically.

So you mix young inexperience with old fragility - this outcome makes a lot more sense.
OK, you young whippersnapper (I assume you are one),
I will mention it. I start my Canadian old age pension this summer (bunch of socialists) when I turn 65 and I could imagine doing this does. My friend Lew rounded Cape Agulhas on his CN 48 ketch a few months ago - with his favoured symmetric spinnaker up and he is 78. Of course Ann was there to help and she is just a kid, only 72. Their circumnav has only taken 16 years so far and they have planned the next three before returning to Lake Ontario when he will be almost 82. (Then they want to get a smaller boat and explore the upper lakes.) Not sure how many of the younger people here routinely fly a symmetric on the open ocean with only two people, but I suspect not many.

It is not age that matters, your health has to be good, but most importantly you have to be mentally tough and resourceful and be confident that if you have survived challenges in the past you can do it again.
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  #47  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
..
BUT, no way am I going to fault this guy for pulling the plug. I mean, c'mon you guys, 600nm or 1300nm to a destination and you're talking buckets, crew weight, wing-n-wing, drogues, and lashed tillers? No freakin' way.

The drogue would slow you to 1-2 knots (that's about a month to the closest destination)...the lashed tiller would mean you're hand-steering (nominally) 24 hours a day...and the wing-n-wing would only let you go where the wind is blowing. The buckets and body english are silly in this context.

That video makes it clear that these techniques are great for moving a boat over a realtively short distance in an emergency situation. It's not about making a freakin' passage without a rudder. Granted, if you want to go all Slocum you could do any of the above for 1300nm and 2-3 months (assuming you had the food/water/ability-to-get-it to survive). But if you (or your crew) are anything less than JSlo, you're calling AMVER. Let's be realistic here.
..
Well, I am not saying that I would not end up calling for a rescue but I can tell you for sure if the situation was not life threatening I would take some days to try.

I know that can be done and I know that has been done before over great distances. I could prove unable to do that (to my great shame) but certainly I would try and for a relatively long time.

They could have provisions and water for that sailing boat that was not faraway from them or from that ship. Probably I would send the crew away on the ship or on that sailing vessel and I would take my time. Anyway with an Epirb I could be picked up if that did not work out. But that's me, I like challenges if my life is not really at risk.

Some more information:






sail-world.com -- 1400 Miles Without a Rudder

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/emergencyrudder.pdf

Oakcliff Sailing Center | News | Ker 11.3 and The Rest of the Rudder Story!

35 Days Without a Rudder | Sail Magazine

steering a boat without a rudder

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-to-Sai...der&id=2367249

Rudderless Sailing

Rudderless Drill

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-03-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #48  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Here here...Old timers rule
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  #49  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

I find it interesting that of all the reasons that yachts are abandoned, the loss of a rudder, alone, with the yacht otherwise intact, ranks right up there near, if not at, the top of the list. I also find it noteworthy that while most spend thousands of dollars on safety and emergency gear, a relatively low cost pre-prepared emergency rudder/steering system is rarely, if ever, on the list unless required by regulations, such as those imposed on participants in events such as the TransPac.

Absent the loss of a rudder that also involves major damage to the hull, the loss of a rudder alone need not warrant the abandonment of a yacht. While one might make do with a jury rig for a few hundred mile passage, for any major passage a better alternative is to carry an emergency steering system that, with not too much effort, can be ready to go in an hour or two. A good example of such gear is the SOS Rudder by Scanmar. This system breaks down into components that can be stowed in a relatively small locker but when needed, quickly assembled and installed on pre-positioned/installed brackets. Moreover, the gear for even a very large yacht (50'+) costs less than $2,600 USD.

Not many years ago some friends of ours, on a return trip from Isla Mujeres following their participation in the annual running of the Regatta del Sol al Sol, lost the rudder on their Hunter 37, Midnight Sun, as the result of a night time collision with a UFO. While it took a little doing, they fashioned a rudder from a spinnaker pole and locker door and managed the yacht for 200+ miles back to Ft. Myers and from their up the ICW to Bradenton where a replacement rudder was installed. It was an exhibit of good seamanship and determination (by "old guys" incidently!). It can be done, but it was somewhat difficult and required an exhausting effort to employ. Much better to be able to assemble an SOS Rudder, drop it into its brackets, and be on ones way.

FWIW...
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  #50  
Old 03-03-2013
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Re: Rudder lost at sea and rescue

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Not many years ago some friends of ours, on a return trip from Isla Mujeres following their participation in the annual running of the Regatta del Sol al Sol, lost the rudder on their Hunter 37, Midnight Sun, as the result of a night time collision with a UFO. While it took a little doing, they fashioned a rudder from a spinnaker pole and locker door and managed the yacht for 200+ miles back to Ft. Myers and from their up the ICW to Bradenton where a replacement rudder was installed. It was an exhibit of good seamanship and determination (by "old guys" incidently!). It can be done, but it was somewhat difficult and required an exhausting effort to employ. Much better to be able to assemble an SOS Rudder, drop it into its brackets, and be on ones way.

FWIW...
Comparing your friends 200 mile, can-call-and-get-rescued at any time situation to a 1300 miles from land in the mid Atlantic, you're on your own no hope for help for days if not weeks is not really the same thing is it?

Add to that Viewfinder had two crew who wanted to be rescued. How do you think that situation would play out if the skipper refused the offer of help and insisted that the crew stick it out.

Last edited by Blye; 03-03-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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