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  #31  
Old 03-10-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
......I started posting at SailNet again at the express request of some of the moderators. I remember now why I faded away.
Hope you don't let the sword fighting get to you and stick around.
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  #32  
Old 03-10-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I started posting at SailNet again at the express request of some of the moderators. I remember now why I faded away.
I did not know you were away, but I did notice that your recent posts were combatant, frustrated, and tainted with a little anger, not just to my posts. When one has this in the head regarding the forum, it is time to chill or to move on and let someone else picks up slag.

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Okey dokey. That's easy. I'll put you on ignore so I won't be moved to share with you. I'm mildly curious on what you consider hatred tainted, but not enough to read any more of your posts. I don't get "pissed" when people don't agree with me.
Thank you, I like that!!!

Nothing turn me off more than a pure arrogance and belittling those others who are just getting into the sailing scene. Take Jeff H as an example, I have never seen him belittling others in his replies ever. There are many many like Jeff on here, genuine helping other with their knowledge without showing off.

Before I sailed the open ocean, I thought that a true sailor must have been humbled by the sea and be respectful other cultures and ideas. On the contrary, sailing forums are full of arrogance, prejudice and secret hand shakes. This is not really necessary. I am just sayin'

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  #33  
Old 03-11-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
The biggest issue with those of us with great expertise in one area is that we have to be careful not to assume our expertise applies outside of that area. Politicians seem to be the most significant exemplars - generally no skills and think they are experts on everything. *grin*

I started posting at SailNet again at the express request of some of the moderators. I remember now why I faded away.
I for one am glad you have resumed posting. I gained a great deal of knowledge from your posts as well as the times we shared together. I returned to posting from the same moderators urging me. Shawn and I were speaking about you yesterday ( in a nice way- grin). BTW they are joining MYC. I just try to ignore the people who get crazed and remain a straight shooter. Likeyou sometimes that may rub people, but it is what it is.

Its funny I agreed with you part I left quoted about
Quote:
The biggest issue with those of us with great expertise in one area is that we have to be careful not to assume our expertise applies outside of that area
I have often had to do that to with people when they talk about cooking and what great chefs they are and correct me about food. I am always still learning about it, and I understand the passion for food and anyone can cook so its hard to sometimes not make comments when other talk like experts in the field. Something I have done professionally for 35 years and had to earn my paycheck doing.

I would think its difficult for some like yourself and Maine Sail to put up with some of us who have a little knowledge, but no wheres the depth, bredth or professionally like you do on a site like this.

Dont shy away though as your expertise and knowledge shines through and makes those of us with an open mind to listen, better sailors. Stay the course. Glad you are back
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Hope you don't let the sword fighting get to you and stick around.
We'll see.

I'm still waiting for specifics about what I said that was hateful.

If I spoke inappropriately I will apologize. We all make mistakes and misstatements. If it is an issue of disagreeing with someone in any form as unacceptable the we are back to the general attitude issue that I find disturbing. That's OT for this thread of course.

The upshot of this thread from my perspective is that the idea of buying a life raft for deliveries and passages on other people's boats is not well advised.

My ignore list is up to 10. That's made SailNet a better place to be for me. *grin*
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  #35  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

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Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
After taking the safety at sea course and played with the life raft, I walked away with a feeling that the current design need lot of improvement, just poor engineering, inadequate testing and rush to market. Unfortunately, without much competition, this will continue.
Which brand/model are you referring to?

Obviously not a Winslow Offshore or similar… If so, I would suggest your expertise in liferaft design and manufacture would have to seriously be called into question…

"Inadequate testing and rush to market"??? I'd bet the folks at Winslow would get a chuckle out of that one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
1. If they make the canopy top with a spherical dome, supported by the light weight alum7000 post (camping tent). It will right itself every time.
Again, I'd reckon those at Winslow would rate your idea of a rigid tent-pole to support the canopy as one of the dumbest things they'd ever heard… Sounds like a great way to punch a hole in the bottom of a raft in the event of a capsize, to me…

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
2. The life raft should be user serviceable, the gas cartridge can be replaced without repacking.
Well, any raft is "user serviceable", of course - you just have to learn/figure out how to do it yourself… One of the British yachting rags had a "how-to" article on this a few years back, and I imagine the subject has been discussed numerous times on various sailing forums… There is nothing to prevent you from trying to service your own raft, but if you've ever watched a professional liferaft re-certification, you'd know there's a hell of a lot more involved than simply replacing the gas cannister...

But if your suggesting that liferaft manufacturers should market their products as such, it would appear you have little understanding of the business model of successful and respected companies and makers of survival gear such as Winslow, or Switlik… Their well-deserved reputation comes from the reliability and lack of failure of their product, by insuring that any re-packing is performed by an authorized service center…You really think they're gonna take the risk of tossing all that out the window by allowing any Tom, Dick, or Harry who purchases one of their rafts to perform the routine of regular inspection and re-certification? Not to mention, do you think the Coast Guard is gonna honor such 'home-brew' servicing by users of vessels where current liferaft certification is a CG requirement?

Right, just like Mercedes and BMW will still honor their extended warranties on their vehicles, no matter whether the maintenance/service has been performed by their dealers, or some shade tree mechanic who lives down the block… What are you smoking, dude?

What happened to the once renowned Givens Marine Survival Co. is a cautionary tale, on how quickly a brand name can be destroyed by poor quality control in the matter of servicing and re-certification...

Coast Guard isues liferaft safety alert - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 03-12-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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  #36  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Which brand/model are you referring to?

Obviously not a Winslow Offshore or similar… If so, I would suggest your expertise in liferaft design and manufacture would have to seriously be called into question…



I'd reckon the folks at Winslow would rate your idea of a rigid tent-pole to support the canopy as one of the dumbest things they'd ever heard… Sounds like a great way to punch a hole in the bottom of a raft in the event of a capsize, to me…



Well, any raft is "user serviceable", of course - you just have to learn/figure out how to do it yourself… One of the British yachting rags had a "how-to" article on this a few years back, and I imagine the subject has been discussed numerous times on various sailing forums… There is nothing to prevent you from trying to service your own raft, but if you've ever watched a professional liferaft re-certification, you'd know there's a hell of a lot more involved than simply replacing the gas cannister...

But if your suggesting that liferaft manufacturers should market their products as such, it would appear you have little understanding of the business model of successful and respected companies and makers of survival gear such as Winslow, or Switlik… Their well-deserved reputation comes from the reliability and lack of failure of their product, by insuring that any re-packing is performed by an authorized service center…You really think they're gonna take the risk of tossing all that out the window by allowing any Tom, Dick, or Harry who purchases one of their rafts to perform the routine of regular inspection and re-certification? Not to mention, do you think the Coast Guard is gonna honor such 'home-brew' servicing by users of vessels where current liferaft certification is a CG requirement?

Right, just like Mercedes and BMW will still honor their extended warranties on their vehicles, no matter whether the maintenance/service has been performed by their dealers, or some shade tree mechanic who lives down the block… What are you smoking, dude?

What happened to the once renowned Givens Marine Survival Co. is a cautionary tale, on how quickly a brand name can be destroyed by poor quality control in the matter of servicing and re-certification...

Coast Guard isues liferaft safety alert - Ocean Navigator - January/February 2003
If you can find out the right procedures to service a raft yourself, I don't see any reason a capable person would not be able to do this him/herself. The prices the dealers want to perform this service are simply outrageous. It's akin to printer companies who gouge you for ink cartridges. The only difference is that they don't give liferafts away. I have found that capable people often do BETTER jobs on things they care about than "professionals." The service guy who does your raft may have a headache, may have had an argument with his wife, or may just be having a bad day. When you do something like this yourself, you know damned well you're not going to cut any corners and are going to be careful. There may be equipment like vacuum bagging equipment that you just don't have access to but other than that, this does not seem to be brain surgery.
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  #37  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
If you can find out the right procedures to service a raft yourself, I don't see any reason a capable person would not be able to do this him/herself. The prices the dealers want to perform this service are simply outrageous. It's akin to printer companies who gouge you for ink cartridges. The only difference is that they don't give liferafts away. I have found that capable people often do BETTER jobs on things they care about than "professionals." The service guy who does your raft may have a headache, may have had an argument with his wife, or may just be having a bad day. When you do something like this yourself, you know damned well you're not going to cut any corners and are going to be careful. There may be equipment like vacuum bagging equipment that you just don't have access to but other than that, this does not seem to be brain surgery.
I don't disagree, and as I said, there is nothing to prevent anyone from attempting to perform this service on their own raft... Of course it's not brain surgery, but then neither is something like bleeding or adjusting the valve clearance on a diesel engine... And yet, there sure seem to be no shortage of sailors out there who appear to be incapable of doing so... (grin)

I was simply pointing out that marketing and selling liferafts as "user-serviceable" by the general public would not appear to be a sound business strategy by a company in the survival equipment business, not to mention the acceptance of such servicing by the CG, or authorities that regulate offshore racing events/cruising rallies, etc, where liferafts may be required equipment...

Again, for anyone who wants to service their raft themselves, have at it... Let Google be your guide, I'm sure there is no shortage of experts on sailing forums out there who will tell you how it's done... (grin)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 03-12-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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  #38  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

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I started posting at SailNet again at the express request of some of the moderators. I remember now why I faded away.
I always appreciate your posts, which are very informative and useful.
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  #39  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I don't disagree, and as I said, there is nothing to prevent anyone from attempting to perform this service on their own raft... Of course it's not brain surgery, but then neither is something like bleeding or adjusting the valve clearance on a diesel engine... And yet, there sure seem to be no shortage of sailors out there who appear to be incapable of doing so... (grin)

I was simply pointing out that marketing and selling liferafts as "user-serviceable" by the general public would not appear to be a sound business strategy by a company in the survival equipment business, not to mention the acceptance of such servicing by the CG, or authorities that regulate offshore racing events/cruising rallies, etc, where liferafts may be required equipment...

Again, for anyone who wants to service their raft themselves, have at it... Let Google be your guide, I'm sure there is no shortage of experts on sailing forums out there who will tell you how it's done... (grin)
Sorry Jon, I wasn't disagreeing with you. My raft (Offshore Commander) is just due. I have received quotes of $1000 to renew inspection. I guess there must be asses for every seat but that's not one I'm going to be sitting in:-) How many man-hours of actual work is required, maybe...maybe 3 plus replacement of dated items? I'd be willing to pay someone $50/hr.=$150+parts. Fair value of maybe 4-500 bucks. Repacking myself, I'd rather spend $ upgrading the flares and whatever else is squooshed in there and maybe even put an EPIRB in.
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  #40  
Old 03-12-2013
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Re: Life Raft Purchase

Wow. A thousand bucks would cover replacement of a lot of SOLAS pyros. A hydro and hazmat shipping to return the gas cylinder. Hand polishing the crystal chandelier...And still only half the price of a new 4-person raft. (Cough, cough.)

Did they give you any breakdown on that?
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