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post #121 of 157 Old 03-25-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Like outbound, I would be interested in knowing how to reset the Auto mode after the remote goes dead. I assume that once the S100 is dead and it goes back into standby, that you just have to walk to the wheel, re-establish the correct heading, then press "auto" on the main control panel. Please confirm if something else needs to be done, like pulling the dead batteries out of the unit.
Yes, there's no trick to re-setting the pilot after it's turned off, you just need to be aware of the issue, is all... Either remove the batteries, and reset the pilot, or put it back in STANDBY and hand steer for a couple of minutes until the remote shuts itself off, then resume by hitting AUTO...

But I think it's quite common to be using the remote early in a trip or the beginning of a day, and then after clearing a harbor or inlet, and simply forgetting about it after establishing a course that's not gonna be altered for awhile... That's when it could be quite likely that the batteries might run down...

I've mentioned this issue to Raymarine reps at the boat shows over the years, but I'm not sure it ever gets passed on... It would be interesting to see whether a correction or addendum has ever been made to the owner's manual that accompanies the units currently being sold, perhaps you or Outbound can check if you see any mention of it in your manuals...

And, I should also mention, my S100 is several years old now, I bought mine not too long after they first came out... Perhaps Raymarine has resolved this issue, and it's no longer a problem with newer units like yours... You could probably run a test by pulling the batteries, and see if the pilot reverts to STANDBY... My control head is the 6002, a fairly recent model, so I doubt it's an issue the the control head, as opposed to the remote...

And of course, perhaps mine is simply unique, I've never used another on a different boat...
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post #122 of 157 Old 03-25-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

thank again Jon. Boat comes in to Norfolk Va around may 15th. Then will sail direct to N.E. after rigging and brief shake down.Small crew so expect to be on autopilot the whole time. Will let you know. Expect ~3d for pasage which may not be enough time for batteries to fail. But then will be coastal and mostly singling so should know soon enough. Folks like you are a major reason I piss off the admiral and spend so much time reading posts. (GRIN) You're the best.

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post #123 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Originally Posted by NewportNewbie View Post
I am planning on doing some deck work and everyone says this is the time to run lines to the cockpit. What lines should I run aft? Right now the only lines aft are the main sheet, jib sheets, topping lift and travelers. I was planning on running the cunningham and boom vang back. Should I do main halyard? Spin Halyard? I am going to be using an Asym. Spinnaker I assume the topping lift isnt needed? Anyone have before and after pics?

Hi NewportMewbie.
We will also soon be running back everything to the cockpit area.

Mainsail up and Down.
The foresail genoa is on a furling and goes to the cockpit anyway.
I can't think of anything else I may need ....
This will be enough for me I am sure.
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post #124 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

This pissing match doesn't surprise me. We are sailors ... and we like to compare the tatoos on our chests, and, in a bind, we jury rig our sails with the guts of our fallen crew.

Honestly. Could it be that some of the things that we love about sailing are what some people hate? And some of the things that people say they hate about sailing, are secretly the things that we love. There are always curmudeons on Sailnet that give you a hard time about creature comforts and luxuries because it isn't the "old way." I love those curmudeons' trash talk and ribbing (as long as its civil). Sailing is a sport and it's a personal challenge to sail ... your way. Some people like the old way ... I secretly do. Some people like the latest gadgets ... I secretly do. I perpetually restore an old boat ... mostly the old way ... but I'm not going to apologize (and no one should) because running lines aft, or some push button gadget is right or cool to them. But I still look forward to the curmudeons giving me a hard time on Sailnet. I hope that it is civil and welcoming ... and after we all compare chest tatoos, people should welcome another person into the world of sailing to which we all belong ... gadgets and all.

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post #125 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

sea·man·ship (smn-shp)
Skill in navigating or managing a boat or ship.
So I had to actually look up the word Seamanship to see what "they" say it means.

It's really pretty short, isn't it.

So lets take the Joy Stick from a Jenneau and lets see who else uses it. cruise ships with thousands of passengers can do a loop-de-loop of an anchorage without tugs and in remote islands and coral cays because and ONLY because they have Joystick and similar computer controlled devices.

You would have to think the Captain is doing a seamanlike job displaying Seamanship.
However if the computer joystick thingo blows up the Captain can not and will not attempt the same maneuvers by direct command.

He will have to wait outside port, or wait in port until the gizmo is fixed by an expensive Gizmo Fixer.

But we don't slag the ship captain because he can't maneuver it, nor because he can't himself fix it!

Remember the litany of Carnival Cruises ships breakdowns in the last few weeks. Do we call the Captains lacking seamanship because they call a tug? Or stay in Port? Or get the passengers off? No! We say that's a high level of Seamanship!

So if Joystick use is seamanship in ships with hundreds of thousands of tons of Oil, or cargo, or passengers why shouldn't it be the same for a Jeanneau 45????

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post #126 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

I suspect the old school advocates don't feel the same way about aircraft, or do you?

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post #127 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

If you go to the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum in D.C., go to the "Golden Era of Flight" display - displaying the airplanes built between WWI and WWII. Note the "Golden Era of Flight" is not the present. (I would also say the "Golden Era of Sailing" would not be the present either, even though we are safer and faster now.)

There you can see the most beautiful plane built - Howard Hughes' silver and blue H-1, which held the land speed record for a period of time. A single-wing propeller plane. It has all been downhill ever since.

There is beauty in simplicity and minimalism in purpose. Older boats, cars and planes are cool and more purposeful. You could actually understand how they work and work on them yourself. Jamming something full of technology does not necessarily make it more attractive or more desirable to us purists, even though they may be safer, more convenient, easier, etc.
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post #128 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Jib Sheets (pretty obvious), Jib Furling Line (obvious again), Traveler, Main Sheet, Vang, In-Haul, Out Haul, (Furling Main Sail), Asymmetrical Tack Line, Asymmetrical Sheets.

Our Main and Jib Halyards run through a Clutch on the mast, they are furling sails. In the spring we run them back to the cockpit and use the coach top winch to raise them. When we feel comfortable with the tension for general sailing, they are coiled and stored neatly on the mast. If we need to tweak halyard tension, they are brought back to the cockpit on a temporary basis as needed.

The asymmetrical spin halyard is at the mast on a cleat, we use a sock for hoisting and dousing.

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post #129 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

got the new sail in the mail(yup still like reading it on the throne rather then on a screen). Read the two articles about not bringing everything aft. Have brought everything aft but still have winches on the mast and cringles in the mainsail. That way can do it either way if needs be. Think all the tech is great but for a small boat sailor you still need to run the boat when stuff breaks/fouls etc. Got three ways to steer the boat- wheel, emergency tiller and autopilot. Each on separate arms off rudderpost. Also have a way to steer when rudder fails. Got weather fax through SSB but have a recording barometer. Got electronic up the ying yang but also papercharts,sexton and merlin. Best is got an engine and SAILS. Same kind of thinking. Would just suggest we all think about what we will do when the gizmo breaks.

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post #130 of 157 Old 03-26-2013
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Automated sailing mentality anecdotally

I was really surprised by the vitriolic tone of some of the earlier posts, especially given the rather innocuous nature of this topic. Frankly, it sounded awfully close to the “Name your second and I’ll meet you on the cliffs of Weehawken at sunrise”. Good grief. (In honor of Jon Eisberg *Grin*)

But what struck me was that the point of contention seemed like multiple symptoms of the same agreed upon problem, which in my mind is that fewer U.S. citizens are getting into sailing in part because we, as a culture, are seemingly getting less mechanically inclined, and also amongst those who do take up sailing, there seems to be less of a willingness and capability to adapt to physical requirements and learning process that is required to be a skillful hands-on sailor.

In response, progressively, there seemingly has been a focused marketing effort to make sailing physically and mentally less demanding as a way of getting people out on sailboats. I do not intend to stand here judging the rightness or wrongness of this approach, but clearly this appears to be a trend, and clearly it is in response to changes in the population.

Anecdotally, I see this trend in a variety of symptoms. For example, in the late 1800’s, there were liveries of small rental sailboats all along the Hudson River. Blue collar workers of the era rented these for a day on the River. On Sunday’s the river was clogged with small sailing craft of a wide variety. People of a board range of economic standing, understood how to sail, and would follow sailing events in the Newspapers in the same way that people follow major league sports on cable channels today.

By the 1960’s, it was not all unusual for families to own small cruiser, and I mean small. People would start out sailing comparatively small boats and work their up to bigger boats and more ambitious adventures as they developed skills.

In our case, when I was a kid, my family of four would cruise for weeks at a time on a Contest 25 and later lived summers on a Vanguard 32 (with about as much interior space as the average 28 footer of today). These were simple boats in all ways, 2 burner alcohol stove, an icebox with real ice, minimal electronics (depth sounder and an RDF), minimal deck gear and so on. My Dad did most of his own maintenance. We were pretty typical of the folks that we knew back then.

And as simple as boats were in those days, there was seemingly a tacit understanding that new sailors went through a process to build skills; learning to be sailors thru a gradual and sequential apprenticeship of skill building by reading and experiencing. And within the sailing community there was a near universal sense of old salts reaching out to newcomers and giving them a leg up.

And there was an ethic which went along with that. A sense of accomplishment in fighting through a storm or ghosting through a lull, in trouble shooting some problem, or coming into a slip or narrow inlet under sail, or of a boat well handled and a fast passage time.

But as a culture we build products that the average person can no longer fix themselves, and so over time we have become less handy and less self reliant. And with that loss of sense of accomplistment from learning and doing, is lost a societal sense that there is merit to valuing those kinds of capabilities. And that must filter into the perceptions of sailing, a sport that primarily exists on the ethic of doing a vast amount with an invisible resource and with difficult challenges.

I attended a sailing yacht design symposium recently and at the symposium was a lecture on a strange radio controlled model sail boat called a ‘Footy’ which is foot long, a foot deep, six inch wide, with something like a 1’-6” rig height. And the lecturer said that kids have become so inept at building things that they could design these boats on a computer but could not build them. They eventually were considering outlawing boats built with the use of computer driven cutters and 3D printers to protect the original purpose of the rule which was to get kids build things.

But back to anecdotes on the issue of automated boats. There was a 10 year period which slowed to a near stop about 5 years ago, where a different person would send me a message every two to three weeks in one form or another, saying something like, “ I have read many of your posts. I am new to sailing and I would like to sail around the world. I have $XX,XXX to spend. What kind of boat should I buy?”

And I would give them all the same answer. “Buy a used, small (no more than 25-30 foot), simple, fin keel spade rudder sloop and spend as much time on the water as you can. Sail with as many people as you can on as many different types of boats as you can in as many types of conditions as you can. Put together a list of topics that you will need to study, (and I would give them a sample list) and then study the daylights out of it. In a year or two or three, you will not have to ask me what kind of boat to buy…you should know for yourself”.

But oddly, in the first exchange of email, the vast majority of these folks started out objecting to the idea of doing ‘an apprenticeship”. Almost every single one of them said, they would learn as they went. They did not want to waste time and money on a boat to learn on. I tried to talk them out of it, most time successfully. And there were so many of these folks that I tracked them for a while on a spreadsheet.
• No matter what was said, some only wanted to buy their ultimate boat. (Although they did provide me with some interesting challenges like the cell phone call from a desperate owner of a 45 footer caught in a higher than they were comfortable with winds, with too much sail up and his wife afraid to take the helm.) Those folks almost never made it anywhere. Years of their life would seemingly pass by and most of them would go away bitter.
• Others did not want to buy a used boat and only wanted to buy new boats with all the bells and whistles, sometimes bigger than I would suggest. They wanted something ‘reliable’, more comfortable, easier to sail, less demanding. Some of those took my advice that in part, the purpose of buying a used boat was to learn how to care for a boat, and build up ingenuity and skills. Those who bought new boats, rarely went beyond coastal cruising, but they also often learned that there is nothing wrong with coastal cruising.
• But a large number of folks followed my suggestions. Out of that group many did move on to bigger boats and successful long distance cruises. Others enjoyed the experience of learning to sail enough, and poking around in coastal conditions, the Bahamas or the Caribbean, that it became all of the adventure that they needed. Some discovered cheaply, that sailing was not for them.
• And others, fretted so long over buying or outfitting the perfect boat that they never did get out there, which was probably the best thing for those folks.

And if I had to come away with one conclusion, at least at the start, it was that for most of these folks, it was about an instant grand reward without having to do the heavy lifting. And seen from that vantage point, the idea of boats which are automated and which require little physical conditioning to operate, and which work well as long as they work, may make sense in terms of getting people into the sport of sailing.

And at the end of the day, I have no problem with that as long as these folks don’t hurt themselves and others through negligence or intentional ignorance. But that is a big “as long as”, and it is that particularly big “as long as” that makes me nervous about advertisements that project complex gizmos as the marketing equivalent of “Viagra seamanship”.

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Last edited by Jeff_H; 03-26-2013 at 04:33 PM.
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