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  #61  
Old 03-19-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

in addition to the suggestions listed (most of which i didn't read) i find a downhaul (for dousing sail) running to the cockpit invaluable for singlehanding.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Okay. What if the boat is big enough that there is plenty of room in the 15 ft cockpit for the lines and electric/hydraulic winches easily overcome the friction and the mast is 25+ ft away.
Outstanding question. Truly outstanding.

You still have the issue of water through the dodger which is fundamentally bad.

I have one electric winch and am shopping for a second. Still, there are a lot of ways to break your boat with electric or hydraulic winches. Have you ever seen a furler explode? I have.

It is too easy to confuse friction with an overload due to some other factor.

In my opinion it takes the experience of grinding against a load to feel the impact (or see it in the reduction of line diameter) of a problem before you break something.

I have lots of stories. *grin*
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  #63  
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Have had every line run aft on last 2 boats and will on new one.
1.if possible use similar color lines for same function- first reefs variation of red,second green etc. Think about how you are going to use winchs,line clutches etc. I have two winches on cabin top. One is powered. Halyards go on that side. Mark lines at usual positons with colored yarn (can feel it in the dark). For example-main halyard marked at first,second and third reef.
2.keep all turns in lines to mimimal degree of acuteness- hugely decreases friction.
3. make sure you can clear kinks in lines quickly. Lines not under load should be pulled aft so no slack -less likely to kink. Periodically take lines out to get rid of any twist in them from use.

Have hard dodger. Issue of getting water in from "holes" trivial as coil lines and dump them in that space. Lines act as buffer and "holes" are part of a limber hole system for dodger. Always have jack lines out when singling. Still have mast pulpit and grab rails on side of dodger and on deck. Bringing everything aft doesn't mean you won't need to go forward time to time.
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  #64  
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

What is this big concern with water through the dodger? We are talking about a narrow slot at the bottom of the dodger that allows lines to pass through. The only way you are going to have significant water coming through that opening is if you are punching your bow into waves and have green waves washing the length of your decks! I am guessing if you are sailing in conditions like that you are gonna get wet anyway! And if you have to go up to the mast to make adjustments? You are going to get REALLY wet! Sailing is a water sport!

Power winches? Carpet? Enclosed cockpits? Might as well just buy a power boat!
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Outstanding question. Truly outstanding.

You still have the issue of water through the dodger which is fundamentally bad.

I have one electric winch and am shopping for a second. Still, there are a lot of ways to break your boat with electric or hydraulic winches. Have you ever seen a furler explode? I have.

It is too easy to confuse friction with an overload due to some other factor.

In my opinion it takes the experience of grinding against a load to feel the impact (or see it in the reduction of line diameter) of a problem before you break something.

I have lots of stories. *grin*
Not following what you mean by water through the dodger.

Ironically, the last block that let go on me was in the BVI while I was manually grinding. However, I think the clevis pin backed out of the shackle.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

The interesting thing here is that I've never seen or heard people argue so hard against lines led aft. I recognize that some of it is tounge in cheek...

But it is Proving my point- everyone else's boat is always rigged wrong. It's a miracle y'all can even sail them.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Not following what you mean by water through the dodger.
Not to speak for Jon, but what I think he is talking about and what I know I am talking about is water sluicing over the deck that with a decent dodger would be kept out of at least the forward part of the cockpit. With lines through or under the dodger there WILL be solid water coming through. That puts electronics under the dodger at risk, it makes paper charts and other documents untenable in the cockpit, and increases the probability of water into the boat down the companionway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
The interesting thing here is that I've never seen or heard people argue so hard against lines led aft. I recognize that some of it is tounge in cheek...
Here I know I can speak for Jon -- neither of us are speaking tongue in cheek. We are serious about this. Our many thousands of professional miles at sea led to our conclusions.

If you want to plot your own course that is certainly your right and privilege. Neither of us will try to talk you out of it. Both of us are old curmudgeons (emphasis on both words) and manage to get to the mast pretty comfortably.

Go ahead and do your own thing on your boat. The question was asked and everyone has a chance to weigh in. It's clear the opinion of the professional delivery skippers is in the minority. Okey dokey.
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  #68  
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

I was talking about Jameswilson- his was tounge in cheek. You were decidedly vehement.

and lo those many pro miles you keep referencing go even further to proving the point, EVERYONE ELSE'S boat is ALWAYS rigged wrong.

I've only a few "pro miles" mostly I sail on my own behalf- on my own boat- you know- the only damn boat in the ocean that is rigged properly.

If I was on other peoples boats all the time I would rather just have it all terminate at the mast too- rather than constantly be sorting out what line goes where.

sometimes I want a dodger.

If had one I would be more sensitive to the issue of water coming through it, in fact it would make me IRATE- the whole point of the thing being to keep water OUT... equipment that cant function properly either by design, or by "meddling" IE leaving zippers open or whatever for lines to come through, drives me nuts.

It always brings a smile when I hear about or see the elderly getting along so well- Keep up the good work, youre only as old as you feel?act? whichever.


I've tried it both ways, and like self tailing winches- I've no axe to grind either way, it seems I've been able to somehow manage on a variety of my own boats (all of which were proper, and yet somehow rigged several different ways) and other peoples to A) get there and back "safely" usually quickly as well
and B) have a reasonably good time, reefing forward or from the cockpit, etc.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Can someone explain what a dodger some of you talk about?!?!?!?!?!?

Found a semi decent shot of my boat with the lines run aft!



I would also point out, the SF3200 was designed as an ocean going racing boat. Either to be single or double handed. As such, everything is reasonably close to the skipper! ie lines run aft so one does not have to go forward, be that good or bad!

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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post

I want my lines that are routed aft, INSIDE my cabin, basically running along the "ceiling"

As I havent a headliner to hide "gutters" under I have yet to come up with a satisfactory way to keep the cabin dry- as the holes the lines enter and exit from will leak in rain, spray or anything else.

once I come up with a set up I feel confident will keep water out I will move all hardware and lines UNDER the deck, rather than on it. look up- now imagine ropes running for and aft on the ceiling.

look down, imagine ropes under your feet.

Now look at the keyboard or iphone whatever, and imaging that all those ropes in either situation terminate right there, allowing you precise control over your marrionette, Now with a complete mental picture like that, which do you imagine to be preferable, lines on the "floor" or lines on the "ceiling"

I crewed a boat with "evertyhing" lead aft- and it was all under the deck, between it and the headliner, wiht "gutters" 5200ed in place under them, so any water that entered the boat, exited into the cockpit. it was awesome. clean usable decks, nothing to trip over etc, the bow guy certainly appreciated it. no clutter, a clean slick visual appearance. IT was HIGHLY functional in every way, and very eye catching and appealing.
I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work on anything but a fairly small boat...

How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?

How were the lines led to winches, once exiting the cabin? Again, without creating issues with increased friction, or chafe?

One of the worst design flaws/setups I have EVER seen, was on an older Hunter that had lines led aft through conduits/covers on the deckhouse, under the dodger, and emerging on each side of the companionway... Guess it never occurred to anyone what might happen when green water came rolling aft on deck... I quickly found out one December night on LI Sound, the amount of water that cascaded down the companionway, even with the hatch closed, was simply beyond belief, it was like a freakin' waterfall...

Ran a few Trintellas that led lines aft through the curved stainless handrails... Very sleek and sexy, garnered lots of Oohs & Ahhs at the boat shows... Yet, in practice, it was astonishing how much additional friction it added to the setup, a more elegant recipe for breaking stuff with an electric cockpit winch has rarely been devised... (grin)

Especially when the main halyard is fed to a winch on one side of the cockpit, and the Leisure-Furl downhall is fed to the opposite side, making it very impractical/difficult for one person to manage both, and gauge the relative tension/resistance when hoisting or reefing the main... No need to ask me how I know this, of course...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 03-19-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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