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  #71  
Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

The holes in the deck- had basically like roulon grommets that the lines led through to the turning blocks. At each end. So where they entered at the base if the mast- and remerged at the cabintop.

The only thing making any contact with the lines other than the hardware you alway see were the rulon or whatever it was grommets. The - what I've been calling gutters- weren't in contact with the lines anywhere- and there were scuppers that drained them into the cockpit. The added friction was minimal over a conventional aft setup. I didn't notice it at all. I also dislike the electric winches. This was a bene 456- not really that small. It had an electric winch for the main- and not feeling what was happening nerve racked me all the time. I didn't like it. I'd rather grind grind grind. But I'm 34 and way more fit than most of the country. Or most humans.

I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.

I leave the cockpit anyway. And for me the fact that I've got "cluttered" decks is way way more a drawback than a tiny bit of additional friction from routing everything aft. Regardless of te way one goes about it.

The friction feels way different than any stress or strain on equipment- so it diesn affect the lines ability to telegraph trouble to me.

I've got no idea how long that boat was tinkered with til it was "right" but it was... Right. It made a lasting impression on me- "when I grow up my boat is going to be just like this one" the guy who Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.

Hahaha.

Last edited by c. breeze; 03-20-2013 at 12:40 AM.
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  #72  
Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work on anything but a fairly small boat...

How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?

How were the lines led to winches, once exiting the cabin? Again, without creating issues with increased friction, or chafe?
I'm not following the difficulty. Lines pass thru a swivel block at the base of the mast, over to a deck organizer where they are redirected through a conduit and straight back to clutches right in front of the cabin top winches. No chafing, no turning blocks inside the cabin.

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One of the worst design flaws/setups I have EVER seen, was on an older Hunter that had lines led aft through conduits/covers on the deckhouse, under the dodger, and emerging on each side of the companionway... Guess it never occurred to anyone what might happen when green water came rolling aft on deck... I quickly found out one December night on LI Sound, the amount of water that cascaded down the companionway, even with the hatch closed, was simply beyond belief, it was like a freakin' waterfall...
Wouldn't this have also been the case without lines run through a conduit, particularly if one does not have a dodger?

All of our cabin top lines run through a conduit and it would allow water in, if it got up that high. We've taken some serious water over the deck, even washing out and salt water crusting the dodger, but significant water through the conduit has never been an issue. Must have been some, but not memorable. I'm also certain, with the hatch closed, nothing would enter the companionway. This I know, as I once delivered her without her dodger in near 40 kt winds. Plenty of water into the cockpit.
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  #73  
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Electronics just above sliding hatch over companionway in coaming. One set there,one set at nav station, one set at wheel. Lines at gradual angle from foot of mast. All approaches to mast free of lines. Lines above deck. Can be cleared,examined or re -reeved easily. Hard dodger designed with running lines aft in mind. With autopilot remote can run boat without ever getting out from under the dodger except for sheets.. No green water issues.Do what ever floats your boat but nice to sit under dodger with honey below and be in touch with each other and out of the wind and weather. Nice to not have to wake anyone up to reef or hoist. Have rule no one goes forward without someone watching them whenever there is more than one on the boat. Respect the Captain's opinion - just see it differently. Respect their appreciation of KISS. Chart book and cruising guide only come up at landfall. Never go overboard.If wet can dry-if overboard gone. The race boats seem to have no trouble going around the world by themselves with everything brought aft.
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  #74  
Old 03-20-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
I was talking about Jameswilson- his was tounge in cheek. You were decidedly vehement.
I guess I was, wasn't I? I intended to be clear. *grin* I overachieved.

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Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
and lo those many pro miles you keep referencing go even further to proving the point, EVERYONE ELSE'S boat is ALWAYS rigged wrong.
Well, not entirely. I've sailed a lot of great boats. The ones that stick in my mind are the ones that had some silly characteristic. There are lots of "right" answers but even more "wrong" or at least misguided ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?
I've seen some pretty cool looking underdeck leads on Jeanneau cruisers. The friction is no greater than any other boat with lines led aft but of course are not nearly so nice as one with lines at the mast.

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Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.
You must be pretty strong. In my experience with lines at the mast I can get the main to the masthead on boats up to 40' and tension the halyard with a winch. On boats to about 50' I can usually get the main to within 8 or 10' and grind it the rest of the way. I can't get anything like that sort of hoist by hand with lines led aft.

I'm 52 in good health and moderate condition.

Oh - at the risk of vehemence again, God intended sailboats have end-boom sheeting. *grin* There's a Psalm or a Commandment or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.
I think German Frers is one of the best naval architects of our age.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I guess I was, wasn't I? I intended to be clear. *grin* I overachieved.



Well, not entirely. I've sailed a lot of great boats. The ones that stick in my mind are the ones that had some silly characteristic. There are lots of "right" answers but even more "wrong" or at least misguided ones.



I've seen some pretty cool looking underdeck leads on Jeanneau cruisers. The friction is no greater than any other boat with lines led aft but of course are not nearly so nice as one with lines at the mast.



You must be pretty strong. In my experience with lines at the mast I can get the main to the masthead on boats up to 40' and tension the halyard with a winch. On boats to about 50' I can usually get the main to within 8 or 10' and grind it the rest of the way. I can't get anything like that sort of hoist by hand with lines led aft.

I'm 52 in good health and moderate condition.

Oh - at the risk of vehemence again, God intended sailboats have end-boom sheeting. *grin* There's a Psalm or a Commandment or something.



I think German Frers is one of the best naval architects of our age.


I'm pretty strong. For sure. I was a ranger for 8 years, and Itgoes with the territory. I have this real real bad tartan 27 and pearson renegade fetish, so I'm pretty enthralled with bill shaW's boats these days- but... I can look at freres boats for days- and not that I want my pop to die- but I do want him toget one so when he passes.... Hahahaha.

I'm not sure if there's actually a biblical commandment regarding end boom sheeting- but I'm confident that my boat- with end boom sheeting- will not inspire the wrath of the almighty, and thus be spared the ordeal of a lightning strike.... Whereas my pops cal- well he may not be so lucky.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

agree with SVA. Mid boom mainsheet seems to put more twist in the line and adds friction but with modern boats being more dependent on the main for sail the pleasure of not having a traveler in the cockpit outweighs the drawbacks of mid boom set up IMHO. Sometimes yank on the halyards up by the mast as some one else yanks from the cockpit. Nice to be able to have two people yank on it which is easy when LINES BROUGHT AFT (grin).
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
The holes in the deck- had basically like roulon grommets that the lines led through to the turning blocks. At each end. So where they entered at the base if the mast- and remerged at the cabintop.

The only thing making any contact with the lines other than the hardware you alway see were the rulon or whatever it was grommets. The - what I've been calling gutters- weren't in contact with the lines anywhere- and there were scuppers that drained them into the cockpit. The added friction was minimal over a conventional aft setup. I didn't notice it at all. I also dislike the electric winches. This was a bene 456- not really that small. It had an electric winch for the main- and not feeling what was happening nerve racked me all the time. I didn't like it. I'd rather grind grind grind. But I'm 34 and way more fit than most of the country. Or most humans.

I find the added friction of lines led aft hasn't ever been sufficient for me to bother to complain about it. It's far less significant than the difference between a boom that's end or mid sheeted. If it were significant like that I'd gripe.

I leave the cockpit anyway. And for me the fact that I've got "cluttered" decks is way way more a drawback than a tiny bit of additional friction from routing everything aft. Regardless of te way one goes about it.

The friction feels way different than any stress or strain on equipment- so it diesn affect the lines ability to telegraph trouble to me.

I've got no idea how long that boat was tinkered with til it was "right" but it was... Right. It made a lasting impression on me- "when I grow up my boat is going to be just like this one" the guy who Owned the boat said he had seen it done on a Swan 61? A big swan. He was a real German freres fan. But it's hard to fault a guy for that. Maybe it was a halberg rassy. Anyway- that where he saw it done and replicated it. I don't know if he ever saw exactly how it was done on that boat or if he just had to wing it. But it was well executed.

Hahaha.
Thanks for the explanation, but I guess it must just be me... I remain completely baffled by the rationale for creating numerous openings in the cabin top, simply to run lines aft inside the cabin for a relatively short distance, and then exiting up to the cabin top again, when they could seemingly be led so much more directly along the cabin top itself...

In an amusing coincidence, the April issue of SAIL addresses the very issue of running lines aft... Editor Peter Neilsen's column sings the praises of keeping such things simple, and in a Viewpoint column on page 26, Ben Ericksen explains "Why I'll Never Lead My Lines Aft"...

So, I guess perhaps Dave/Auspicious and I are not the only dinosaurs out there with such a minority point of view, after all... (grin)
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Yeah- the way you explain it really emphasizes how ridiculous it is. Yes you're right too- like so many things sailboat related it doesn't make sense. Making life harder than it needs to be, in order to meet an aesthetic preference. That's probably the essence of sailing.
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

I don't think I would want to mess around with penetrating the deck into the cabin twice in order to run halyards internally. That is just asking for trouble both with water ingress and a serious PIA factor when it comes to removing and re-running halyards in future. Some manufacturers are now running the halyards in channels with removable covers on them which looks nice if it is well executed. At least that way you get the clean decks without penetrating into the cabin.

There really is not much more friction with the halyard lead aft. It makes 1 90deg turn at the base, and then deflects through the deck organizer. There is a bit more friction pulling the halyard through the closed spinlock clutch, but I can still hand-over-hand my sails to the masthead. If for some reason there is more friction, I can 2-hand it, with the clutch holding between pulls. If I have crew on board, I can go to the mast and jump the halyard, while someone tails from the pit. When I am hoisting the spinnaker, I can steer with the tiller between my legs while I hand-over-hand the chute up, and then grab the spin sheet, trim in, and I am sailing. That is infinitely more efficient than having to run up to the mast for the hoist, and then run back to the cockpit to trim and steer. There is way more potential for something to go wrong if you are forced to tie off the tiller or use an autohelm (which I don't have) and run around the boat.
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Old 03-21-2013
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Re: Mostly singlehanded...what lines should I run aft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
How does one configure the turning blocks inside the cabin, without admitting water? Or, eliminating friction in the case of sealed conduits without turning blocks?
I've seen some pretty cool looking underdeck leads on Jeanneau cruisers. The friction is no greater than any other boat with lines led aft but of course are not nearly so nice as one with lines at the mast.
Jeanneau has actually built boats with lines led aft inside the cabin???

I must confess, I've never seen such a thing, nor even heard of it until this thread...
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