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post #21 of 51 Old 03-18-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

I still dont get why not just by a system and have it permanently installed at the helm, powered by your 12 volt power, protected from the elements. Why cobble together a whole bunch of differing stuff.

The I pad is a great instrument as Minnnie noted above and I concur and it is portable. When conditions are rougher and the weather inclement I dont want to rely on that topsides if I dont have to. I love my I Pad and it portability. Its a great planning tool. If I was serious about all the electronic data I would get the equipment designed for it. Its not that expensive anymore.

Its like too much head down sailing. Everyone looking at their screens,,,whats the computer say the wind is here, whats the computer say the current is here, whats the computer say where we are, whats the computer say about the ship 10 miles away and are we going to colide. Then sail 10 minutes and check all the elctronics again.

Hey I have a chartplotter ,radar, ais, instruments and an I Pad to boot. But I am out there to sail my boat not be a quantum elctronics engineer. I am not an airline pilot needing to compute my next emergency landing.

On our boat we have " no electronics days" where we sail without the toys on. When is the last time youve all tried that for 8 hours or so???????
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post #22 of 51 Old 03-18-2013
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Ok chef I'll chime in.

1. Cost
For navigation alone my iPad is a touchscreen navigation system that in some cases is far not sophisticated than a system costing many many thousands of dollars.

2. Convenience. I can mount it in my boat so I can see it just like other instruments. Heads not down. It's above the companionway.

3. Learning. When I sail I am always learning. How do I know the minute adjustment I did to sail made it better or worse?

I'm also a techie so I love the high tech options.

In my opinion if if helps you sail better then use it. I plan on getting dedicated instruments but almost all systems now can link to an iPad for a good reason.

Convenience.

The thing that will probably happen at some time in the future is that all these things will get merged into one device.
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post #23 of 51 Old 03-18-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I still dont get why not just by a system and have it permanently installed at the helm, powered by your 12 volt power, protected from the elements. Why cobble together a whole bunch of differing stuff.

The I pad is a great instrument as Minnnie noted above and I concur and it is portable. When conditions are rougher and the weather inclement I dont want to rely on that topsides if I dont have to. I love my I Pad and it portability. Its a great planning tool. If I was serious about all the electronic data I would get the equipment designed for it. Its not that expensive anymore.

Its like too much head down sailing. Everyone looking at their screens,,,whats the computer say the wind is here, whats the computer say the current is here, whats the computer say where we are, whats the computer say about the ship 10 miles away and are we going to colide. Then sail 10 minutes and check all the elctronics again.

Hey I have a chartplotter ,radar, ais, instruments and an I Pad to boot. But I am out there to sail my boat not be a quantum elctronics engineer. I am not an airline pilot needing to compute my next emergency landing.

On our boat we have " no electronics days" where we sail without the toys on. When is the last time youve all tried that for 8 hours or so???????
Dave my friend,

We've had this debate before, and as I've said before, different setups work better for different people.

But I think you're "talking out of both sides of your mouth" by suggesting that people spend $$$$ for a permanently mounted system like yours (including radar, AIS, and other nice "distractions"), but then accusing others of head-down sailing. Any system, whether laptop, tablet, or a permanent turnkey system, can be as simple or as complex as you want it. If you design it properly and keep it simple it is a nice dashboard to have in front of you without touching it, and if it's too complex you'll spend too much time zooming in and out, and otherwise manipulating it. But this is true whether it's a turnkey Raymarine system (which, on both of my charters, I found to require a ridiculous number of button pushes to get any information) or a cobbled together PC/tablet system. I've got my Netbook configured with a dual screen, one side zoomed in for detail, the other zoomed out for AIS targets. The chartplotter program runs continuously - I reboot it a couple times a season, otherwise it's simply put to sleep when I stow it away between sails, where I believe it is stored more securely than a fancy display in the cockpit.



I have very little room at my helm, and a "pod" on the binnacle would obstruct movement far more than my little Netbook bracket. Also, my Netbook mount is infinitely adjustable, so if I choose to sit next to the wheel on the windward side, I can pivot it to view it from that position.



If it rains or I'm in rough conditions, I put the thing away in the cabin (where it still continues to run and can still control the autopilot via Bluetooth, if I so choose), but for those situations I have the waterproof handheld mounted on the binnacle (which you can see in the pic above).



These things are wonderful tools to have, and I believe the parody of someone running head-on into an island with his head buried in the computer screen is just a figment of a cynic's imagination.

As for the computer telling me if I am going to collide, I can tell you that the closest-point-of-approach calculations of the AIS system are a HUGE safety improvement that takes a most of the guesswork out of sailing on my crowded river. I give the big freighters a lot of space, but I know with confidence that I have 15 minutes to cross the channel before it's here (or, more frequently, that the distant ship is only anchored and not coming toward me at all). It turns a potentially dangerous river into a safe sailing range.

I'm curious about the SailTime Wind Vane, but reluctant because I have resisted to avoid the very complexity you've expressed concern about. My windex works fine (even though the PO installed it backwards ), and I just had the window on my bimini enlarged so I can have a better view of it. I hope you're more tolerant of people looking up than looking down.


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post #24 of 51 Old 03-18-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Dave my friend,

We've had this debate before, and as I've said before, different setups work better for different people.

But I think you're "talking out of both sides of your mouth" by suggesting that people spend $$$$ for a permanently mounted system like yours (including radar, AIS, and other nice "distractions"), but then accusing others of head-down sailing. Any system, whether laptop, tablet, or a permanent turnkey system, can be as simple or as complex as you want it. If you design it properly and keep it simple it is a nice dashboard to have in front of you without touching it, and if it's too complex you'll spend too much time zooming in and out, and otherwise manipulating it. But this is true whether it's a turnkey Raymarine system (which, on both of my charters, I found to require a ridiculous number of button pushes to get any information) or a cobbled together PC/tablet system. I've got my Netbook configured with a dual screen, one side zoomed in for detail, the other zoomed out for AIS targets. The chartplotter program runs continuously - I reboot it a couple times a season, otherwise it's simply put to sleep when I stow it away between sails, where I believe it is stored more securely than a fancy display in the cockpit.



I have very little room at my helm, and a "pod" on the binnacle would obstruct movement far more than my little Netbook bracket. Also, my Netbook mount is infinitely adjustable, so if I choose to sit next to the wheel on the windward side, I can pivot it to view it from that position.



If it rains or I'm in rough conditions, I put the thing away in the cabin (where it still continues to run and can still control the autopilot via Bluetooth, if I so choose), but for those situations I have the waterproof handheld mounted on the binnacle (which you can see in the pic above).



These things are wonderful tools to have, and I believe the parody of someone running head-on into an island with his head buried in the computer screen is just a figment of a cynic's imagination.

As for the computer telling me if I am going to collide, I can tell you that the closest-point-of-approach calculations of the AIS system are a HUGE safety improvement that takes a most of the guesswork out of sailing on my crowded river. I give the big freighters a lot of space, but I know with confidence that I have 15 minutes to cross the channel before it's here (or, more frequently, that the distant ship is only anchored and not coming toward me at all). It turns a potentially dangerous river into a safe sailing range.

I'm curious about the SailTime Wind Vane, but reluctant because I have resisted to avoid the very complexity you've expressed concern about. My windex works fine (even though the PO installed it backwards ), and I just had the window on my bimini enlarged so I can have a better view of it. I hope you're more tolerant of people looking up than looking down.
I interested...what AIS program do you have in real time?


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post #25 of 51 Old 03-18-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

Hey I didnt say not to use it. I guess thats where the talking out of both sides of my mouth came. I have a dedicated system so obviously I beleive in the elctrontics too.

But I also beleive what Jon has been preaching here for a while that people with electrontics will take risks that normally they wouldnt.

For sailing a few hours on the Delaware River in good weather your set up works.

For a 12 hour trip in rough weather down through Delaware Bay or in the Ocean it doesnt. So it does work for your type of sailing. I want something there when the weather gets rougher. Thats when you really want it too. For less than a couple of thousand dollars you can get a good touch screen CP and radar now. You flip a switch it works...it doesnt have to reboot...it doesnt have to be charged..it dimms in poor light...its integrated with autohelms and other intruments...it gives you weather...and some even hook into an I pad.

I AM NOT AGAINST ELECTRONICS obviously. I am against the overdependence on them.

My point about sailing without electronics is that for me it can take away from the experience sometimes FOR ME. I also find that people who dont practice without it, are at a loss with out it when it goes out.
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post #26 of 51 Old 03-18-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

As a bit of a traditionalist, I still think that navigation belongs at the nav station. I am quite happy not having a chartplotter / iPad / computer / handheld at the helm. Give me a navigator who communicates clearly and succinctly and and a helm who understands. And both know how to use their eyes.

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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

Three minor points:
1. There are two categories of IPAD. One is wifi only and one has wifi and cellular.
The wifi only model does not have the built-in gps chip.
You need to get the cellular model.
You do not need to purchase the cellular plan as the gps chip will still work but you do need the cellular model or you have to purchase a separate plug-in compatible gps dongle for the wifi only unit.
2. The ability to see in bright sunlight is an issue for most of us.
3. The battery will run down very quickly so you need a charging source.

The lesson from the Icarus story is not about human failing.
It is a lesson about the limitations of wax as an adhesive.
If you have an engineering problem solve it.

Last edited by davidpm; 03-18-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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post #28 of 51 Old 03-19-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I interested...what AIS program do you have in real time?
I use OpenCPN, which keeps getting better and better. Here's a screenshot from a prior version:



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post #29 of 51 Old 03-19-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
I use OpenCPN, which keeps getting better and better. Here's a screenshot from a prior version:

Is it real time or is there a delay. I rememebr this was one of the issues you commented on before. I thought Open CPN could be as much as a 15 minute delay.


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post #30 of 51 Old 03-19-2013
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Re: Ipad as sailing instrument....

New technology, like the wireless anemometer above are terrific and will surely increase the capabilities of electronics and decrease the price as it progresses. I have serious reservations about actually depending on non-marine designed electronic products. Maybe they'd be ok for close inshore application, but not for any kind of extended trip. Sunlight visibility is a BIG issue. Displays designed for indoor use can be totally useless when you need them most.

I have tried OpenCPN a number of times and finally got tired of it crashing and burning. Maybe it's my computers (which work fine for Sailcruiser, Polar Navy, and Seaclear) but I would never depend on this program.

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