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  #131  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
LOL! Hey, what can I say, I'm just a wimp about this, I suppose...

We all have different comfort levels about the sizes of boats we're comfortable sailing shorthanded, is all... Mine now roundabout 40-42 feet, the H-R 43 I recently ran up from Trinidad is about the upper limit of what I'd care to sail regularly (66+ feet above the water is about as high as I EVER want to go up a rig, for one thing (grin)) 80 lb anchors are about as much as I care to deal with, and so on... The main on this H-R is pretty big, about as much as I'd care to deal with in a tropical squall in the middle of the night, and so on... (No moon, no radar on that trip, we came close to getting caught with our pants down a couple of times) Oh, and I probably should mention, I'm one of those wusses who considers 30 knots to be a LOT of wind, and frankly - the forces involved on 50+ footers in such conditions, whether aided by powered winches or not, simply scare me...

Unfortunately, the boats I'm asked to deliver keep getting bigger, yet I keep getting older... Not the ideal trend, over the long haul... (grin)

We all have different levels of comfort regarding this stuff, it's as simple as that... My 'threshold' seems a bit more conservative than most, is all...

I've no doubt you've made a superb choice with your Outbound, however... A 40-42' version of the same would come as close as anything out there now to being my own Dream Boat...


Thing I don't understand is why go so big? It seems every time I hear about "how easy it is to handle the boats" it is about how a couple has gone around the world in one, but why? What do you need all that room for? Sure if you have several children with you all the time and visitors and what not, but it is always a picture of an old couple, or an old guy and a younger woman. Of course I don't understand the need for a big house either. I outgrew the need to impress others, and guess I am not trying to make up for other short comings! :-)

I just don't see much to be gained by going over 40 foot for a couple.

Now if money were no object and I had a full time crew then sure, but for just a couple it does not look fun.
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  #132  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Thing is when first marketed before they added the sugar scoop it was 44 Come on Jon what's 2 ft. Among friends.
Also most boats boast a wAtertight bulkhead forward (Hylas,pAssport etc.).in mine it's 7ft back. Other than rode try to weight out of the ends so it pretty much empty. Agree with you guys low forties,high thirties is about right.
Still,nothing like lwl for speed.
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  #133  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

From the article I see two problems here...

1) Both knew forecasts called for a serious storm to move across Virginia, Maryland and the north-central Atlantic by late Tuesday, but every weather model said waves would top out at 4 to 6 feet — bumpy, but manageable

2) "Even my father has said, 'Why go out in those conditions? Why not wait a few days?'" recalled Southward.

"As professionals, our job is to deliver the vessel as quickly and safely as possible," Schoenberger said.

Regarding #1, if forecast calls for a serious storm, watch out because
a serious storm is just that serious. They can usually kick up gale force winds and god only knows how big the seas can get in the Atlantic. The weather models are not always accurate.

Regarding #2 I look at this..."As professionals, our job is to deliver the vessel as quickly and safely as possible," Schoenberger said.

I understand they have a job to do. If it needs to be quickly and safely as possible let it be just that. Safe as possible should not include having to chance it in stormy conditions. If it was me I would tell my client hey forecast is not so good, we are going to wait a couple days to make sure we can get your vessel to you safe and sound. I don't see why the owner of the vessel would have a problem if professional captains recommend waiting a day or two.

This all said, glad the crew is alive and well. In the end that is what matters the most.
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  #134  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Lot's of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread regarding the rescue of the crew of this boat. As I sit here a week after two highly experienced airline captains managed to reach the ground before they reached the airport, driving their jumbo jet into the ground at SFO, I can only think what most other pilots are thinking about that situation - There but for the grace of God go I.

I would imagine that everyone here has been caught out, so to speak, and gotten themselves into situations they wish they hadn't. Certainly most of us have been in situations we are glad we didn't have to explain ourselves for later. We either pulled if off or got away with it depending on your POV. I would give the delivery captains some slack here. Too easy to say shoulda coulda.
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  #135  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

A question about these abandoned boats - regarding salvage rights: Is it finders keepers or, if salvaged/found/towed in etc, would the finder expect a fight from the owners/ insurance companies?
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  #136  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Lot's of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread regarding the rescue of the crew of this boat. As I sit here a week after two highly experienced airline captains managed to reach the ground before they reached the airport, driving their jumbo jet into the ground at SFO, I can only think what most other pilots are thinking about that situation - There but for the grace of God go I.
Pilots do the same thing on various message boards. Try to remember that there are somewhere in the realm of 3-5 general aviation accidents per day (most minor or non-fatal), so there are usually a bunch of posts with a bunch of responses on different boards.

I've found the replies there to be more educated and informative than on sailing boards when it comes to accident response, but at the same time, you usually have more information available (NTSB investigates all accidents and does a good job, most of the time) and the factors involved in 90% of accidents are usually the same (fuel exhaustion, VFR into IMC, flying into thundestorms). I think the quality of the responses is a result of the required education it takes to fly an airplane vs. sail a boat, most people on those boards will at least have 50 or 60 hours, with a likely average of around 1000, and there are a lot more experienced people (charter pilots, instructors, etc), resulting in better responses.

That said, you still get the long schpeals about "I'd never do this" or "I'd never do that" or "What a fool, I do x, y, and z so this never happens". What someone told me a long time ago is that no one departs with the intent of getting into an accident or intentionally does something stupid to kill themselves, it's always a chain of decisions that lead to the point of the accident and it is foolish to assume that you can't find yourself in the same situation. It only takes a few minor lapses in judgement to get you in a bad place, no matter how well you prepared.

You also have to question your decisions after the fact, even if you survive. These guys may have made the same trip in the same conditions 10 times before and been fine, but a few strokes of bad luck or mistakes this time lead them to needing rescue. I frequently found that NTSB reports indicate pilots in accidents had done what resulted in the accident several times before without incident. For example, I had a friend's instructor that flew a non-deiced A36 Bonanza into known icing conditions. When I called him out on it, he told me he had done it before and that the conditions at the time didn't meet the regulatory requirement for known icing. The fact was, there were pilot reports of icing along his route of flight for the 5 hours before he took off, airports along his route of flight reporting could cover and moisture at his altitude, and temps aloft were below freezing. The icing charts showed ice at his altitude. The worst decision of all was not diverting when he encountered the situation, rather he descended to below the minimum en route altitude along his route and flew that way for several hours. This could have killed him and everyone on board, but he survived. He had done it several times before and been fine. The arrogance of this situation aside, some people assume that because they did it once, it's therefore safe, which is not accurate. If you do something 100 times, it doesn't mean it won't kill you the 101st. In some situations, people rely on these experiences and go with it, rather than question the decision to they made on instance #1. You always need to question yourself and your decisions, no matter the result.

We are all accident prone based on our decisions and there are always factors that go into it. You do the best you can to mitigate your risks, but the reason these accidents happen are flaws in human nature. They will continue, all we can do is try to learn from them and call ourselves out on the stupid things we do, but that's not a guarantee.
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  #137  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Lot's of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread regarding the rescue of the crew of this boat. As I sit here a week after two highly experienced airline captains managed to reach the ground before they reached the airport, driving their jumbo jet into the ground at SFO, I can only think what most other pilots are thinking about that situation - There but for the grace of God go I.

I would imagine that everyone here has been caught out, so to speak, and gotten themselves into situations they wish they hadn't. Certainly most of us have been in situations we are glad we didn't have to explain ourselves for later. We either pulled if off or got away with it depending on your POV. I would give the delivery captains some slack here. Too easy to say shoulda coulda.
Well, that's very gentlemanly and generous of you, but I would simply suggest you may be seriously underestimating the sheer stupidity of taking a boat best suited for the ICW out around Hatteras - a far LONGER route than inside, along one of the deadliest lee shores in the entire North Atlantic - in the dead of winter, just as the most powerful winter storm of the year is drawing a bead on the region, while hoping one of of 3 most treacherous and changeable inlets on the entire East coast might represent a reasonable bail-out option...

Sorry, I've done some pretty stupid things with boats over the years, but I have little problem saying "coulda shoulda" in this case... :-)
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  #138  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Lot's of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread regarding the rescue of the crew of this boat. As I sit here a week after two highly experienced airline captains managed to reach the ground before they reached the airport, driving their jumbo jet into the ground at SFO, I can only think what most other pilots are thinking about that situation - There but for the grace of God go I.

I would imagine that everyone here has been caught out, so to speak, and gotten themselves into situations they wish they hadn't. Certainly most of us have been in situations we are glad we didn't have to explain ourselves for later. We either pulled if off or got away with it depending on your POV. I would give the delivery captains some slack here. Too easy to say shoulda coulda.
I generally agree with you. At some point, you get caught no matter how perfect you are in your own mind.

But I also like the MMQing. It's just a way to learn. I just try to be careful never to call the rescuees "idiots". That kind of thing always comes back to bite you.
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  #139  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by sailguy40 View Post
From the article I see two problems here...

1) Both knew forecasts called for a serious storm to move across Virginia, Maryland and the north-central Atlantic by late Tuesday, but every weather model said waves would top out at 4 to 6 feet — bumpy, but manageable

2) "Even my father has said, 'Why go out in those conditions? Why not wait a few days?'" recalled Southward.

"As professionals, our job is to deliver the vessel as quickly and safely as possible," Schoenberger said.

Regarding #1, if forecast calls for a serious storm, watch out because
a serious storm is just that serious. They can usually kick up gale force winds and god only knows how big the seas can get in the Atlantic. The weather models are not always accurate.

Regarding #2 I look at this..."As professionals, our job is to deliver the vessel as quickly and safely as possible," Schoenberger said.

I understand they have a job to do. If it needs to be quickly and safely as possible let it be just that. Safe as possible should not include having to chance it in stormy conditions. If it was me I would tell my client hey forecast is not so good, we are going to wait a couple days to make sure we can get your vessel to you safe and sound. I don't see why the owner of the vessel would have a problem if professional captains recommend waiting a day or two.

This all said, glad the crew is alive and well. In the end that is what matters the most.
Now they may have a schedule to keep, but I believe the primary goal is to actually delver the yacht. Hard to do that when you abandon it out in the storm you knew was coming! I know if I got my boat delivered and it had ripped sails and a trashed motor because they left when they knew there was a storm coming I would be withholding my payment till I discussed with a lawyer.
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  #140  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
Now they may have a schedule to keep, but I believe the primary goal is to actually delver the yacht.
The most dangerous item on a boat is a calendar.
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