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  #141  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The most dangerous item on a boat is a calendar.
Awesome quote, that one I am going to keep.

While taking RYA classes the instructors' classic quote was always "the decision made five hours ago could be the thing that kills you tomorrow".
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  #142  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
Thing I don't understand is why go so big? It seems every time I hear about "how easy it is to handle the boats" it is about how a couple has gone around the world in one, but why? What do you need all that room for? Sure if you have several children with you all the time and visitors and what not, but it is always a picture of an old couple, or an old guy and a younger woman. Of course I don't understand the need for a big house either. I outgrew the need to impress others, and guess I am not trying to make up for other short comings! :-)

I just don't see much to be gained by going over 40 foot for a couple.

Now if money were no object and I had a full time crew then sure, but for just a couple it does not look fun.
5 or 6 years ago, CRUISING WORLD went through a spell where it seemed as if almost every cover story, or their newly-minted "Yacht Style" section, featured the latest and greatest "Globe-Girdling" Ultimate Cruising Yacht... The stories behind the creation of these boats were always deeply personal, and portraying the yacht as the ultimate reflection and expression of the owner's experience, and desires/plans for the future...

In hindsight, however, many of these boats turn out to be far more about the PROJECT itself, than what will actually be done with it after its completion... Like virtually every new 200' megayacht launched today, within a year it will show up in the Brokerage Section of the magazines that so breathlessly trumpeted its launch only months before, while the owner embarks on the creation of a newer, far more impressive 250-footer...

A few of the boats I remember from that time, all featured in CW Cover or lead Feature stories:

This was FAIRWEATHER, the magnificent S&S Seguin 52 from Lyman-Morse that I once had the honor of taking around Hatteras one winter on a delivery south...





I suspect I sailed her almost as much as the owner himself ever did, she was rather quickly listed for sale for a few years before finally changing hands during the past year...

Then, there was the story of "The Mighty Mights", a couple who selected a Globe-Girdling Hallberg-Rassy 62 as their first boat... It's been sitting on the hard in Jabin's in Annapolis for quite some time, now...

Then there's a magnificent Kanter 62, one of her more memorable features was the big-screen Plasma TV that stowed away inside a bulkhead by virtue of a cleverly-arranged hydraulic mechanism... That's the main thing I remember about that boat, which you can now see on Yachtworld...

Finally, there's NEW MORNING, another 54-foot Lyman-Morse "circumnavigator", designed to be "comfortable to 50 degrees N or S of the equator", featured just a few years ago...

Up and At 'Em | Cruising World

She, too, is already for sale...

Now, of course, there could be any number of compelling reasons why any of these owners' plans may have changed - financial reversals since the recession, illness, whatever... But I've had more than one client over the years, whose primary interest in boat ownership seemed to be always focused on 'The Next One', or 'The Ultimate Boat' where they were going to get everything right, and yet... once the project was finished, they really didn't know what to do with the damn thing... Well, beyond having me take it to places for them to fly into and sit on, for awhile...:-)

One of the primary reasons I so love cruising in Maine, is for the boats you see up there... Boats like the one below, that may have been sailed by the same owner for decades, or perhaps passed down from one generation to the next in the same family... I encountered a couple in Nova Scotia once who were celebrating their 40th summer of sailing their Concordia yawl... Such a boat is pitifully cramped and tiny below, hopelessly 'outmoded' by modern standards, of course... but she still sails like a witch, and there will be few boats in any harbor more beautiful...

Thinking back, I'd have to rate that pair as very likely the most contented boat owners I have ever met...


Last edited by JonEisberg; 07-12-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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  #143  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Jon, I love going 'round with you on these fine forums - in fun. But I will honestly tell you - I am both amazed and envious of the experiences you've had on the number of boats you've sailed.

You're the man.
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  #144  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon, I love going 'round with you on these fine forums - in fun. But I will honestly tell you - I am both amazed and envious of the experiences you've had on the number of boats you've sailed.

You're the man.
I agree. Its important to have someone who is kind of a historian with the experience Jon has had who can put it into words elequently.
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  #145  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, that's very gentlemanly and generous of you, but I would simply suggest you may be seriously underestimating the sheer stupidity of taking a boat best suited for the ICW out around Hatteras - a far LONGER route than inside, along one of the deadliest lee shores in the entire North Atlantic - in the dead of winter, just as the most powerful winter storm of the year is drawing a bead on the region, while hoping one of of 3 most treacherous and changeable inlets on the entire East coast might represent a reasonable bail-out option...

Sorry, I've done some pretty stupid things with boats over the years, but I have little problem saying "coulda shoulda" in this case... :-)

Jon, when first read of this incident I agreed with you 100%. And, i agree there was no reason to go outside, imo, for any reason. Buttttt! But then i read the captain's acct. Truthfully, while I still don't like some of the decisions that were made. My own conclusion is what we have here is a Domino Effect incident. Same as many aircraft crashes. In this case take away one Domino and we never hear about a boat named Adante 2. Storm takes it's projected path to the northwest, no rescue. Captain's forecast of 6 to 8 holds we have no rescue. The boats engine doesn't hit the crapper we don't have a rescue. They are somehow able to shoot the inlet, (yeah i know)we don't have a rescue.

In hindsight these captains look downright incompetent. They sit right at the intersection of poor judgement and bad luck. Truth is, maybe they are incompetent. Key word here "maybe." AS i said in my previous post the line between pulling it off and getting away with it is razor thin. We have all been there! And i agree my take is generous. But lacking an NTSB level investigation we've got to draw our own conclusions.

That said, i would never hire these guys to move a boat.
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  #146  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

The flying analogy only goes so far. There is mandatory licensing for pilots. Pilots must master a complex body of technical knowledge to perform adequately. There are regulations, mandatory oversight and inspections of commercial planes. An aircraft accident can cause damage not only to the captain and passengers, but also innocent third parties on the ground. The explosive nature of fuel creates far greater risks than a boat sinking at sea. Passenger planes carry indestructible black boxes that record every decision made in flight. A federal agency conducts post-accident investigations.

In contrast, recreational boating is largely unlicensed and unregulated, which is great. Anyone can buy a boat and sail anywhere he or she chooses, no matter how foolish that decision may be. While there is a body of technical knowledge that should be understood, some learn on the fly or not at all. In the absence of any strict regulatory scheme and licensing, common sense, problem solving and good judgment become critically important. Many of us believe experience is not the be-all and the end-all for good decision-making on the water.

Yes, the Coast Guard requires certain licenses for those professionals who take on greater responsibilities, but almost anyone can get a license with study and the requisite time on the water.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. All humans make mistakes. This listserv serves an extremely important educational function in analyzing these incidents. We all benefit. Many of us have internalized the lessons learned and naturally view those who ignore them as deficient. We usually only learn about these incidents because the Coast Guard has to step in and rescue the offenders.

The common refrain of "I wasn't there so I won't judge their decisions" is B.S. Hey, most of the boat owners on this listserv are at least moderately financial successful people in life. Many of us serve as researchers, analysts, consultants and advisers. We give opinions everyday on things of which we have no first-hand knowledge or observation, but which have learned about through research and analysis. Get over it. That is the way the world works. If only those with first-hand observation are qualified to comment on an incident, 99% of our advances in life would disappear...

Finally, there is not a person here who has not acted like an idiot at some point in their lives (or every day for that matter). Calling someone an idiot is hardly an offense or a hindrance to learning. Often it is merely humorous and entertaining. If one has an ego so inflated that one's self-image is punctured by name-calling, perhaps ongoing therapy should be in the cards.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 07-13-2013 at 09:53 AM.
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  #147  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Jon, when first read of this incident I agreed with you 100%. And, i agree there was no reason to go outside, imo, for any reason. Buttttt! But then i read the captain's acct. Truthfully, while I still don't like some of the decisions that were made. My own conclusion is what we have here is a Domino Effect incident. Same as many aircraft crashes. In this case take away one Domino and we never hear about a boat named Adante 2. Storm takes it's projected path to the northwest, no rescue. Captain's forecast of 6 to 8 holds we have no rescue. The boats engine doesn't hit the crapper we don't have a rescue. They are somehow able to shoot the inlet, (yeah i know)we don't have a rescue.

That said, i would never hire these guys to move a boat.
Bingo.

The double-edged sword is risk evaluation. There is not one of us here who haven't done something that we knew was risky. In most of those cases, we skated by - because we didn't have the cascade of many things going wrong at once. But, we also likely didn't think of all of those things that could have gone wrong either.

The bottom line is that there is no way to get it exactly right. It's simply an exercise of minimizing the risk as much as possible without going overboard and getting frozen at the dock while you're thinking through every possible scenario.

The one element that trumps everything else in the equation of sailing is the weather. I can't know when my engine is going to suddenly take a crap, or when my electrical system is going to die - but I can absolutely know, ALWAYS, that I don't want to be anywhere near a TS. There's plenty of evidence that forecasts are not always right.

That's my lesson here. Stay the hell away.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 07-13-2013 at 11:18 AM.
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  #148  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Bingo.

The double-edged sword is risk evaluation. There is not one of us here who haven't done something that we knew was risky. In most of those cases, we skated by - because we didn't have the cascade of many things going wrong at once. But, we also likely didn't think of all of those things that could have gone wrong either.

The bottom line is that there is no way to get it exactly right. It's simply an exercise of minimizing the risk as much as possible without going overboard and getting frozen at the dock while you're thinking through every possible scenario.

The one element that trumps everything else in the equation of sailing is the weather. I can't know when my engine is going to suddenly take a crap, or when my electrical system is going to die - but I can absolutely know, ALWAYS, that I don't want to be anywhere near a TS. There's plenty of evidence that forecasts are not always right.

That's my lesson here. Stay the hell away.
Now there it is in a nutshell. A fairly simple concept.
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  #149  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I agree. Its important to have someone who is kind of a historian with the experience Jon has had who can put it into words elequently.
Dave, I do not disagree with you at all about this. It's great to have someone of his experience who is willing to take the time to explain things for us novices (speaking for myself, not you). That is absolutely true.

But I want to re-emphasize this part of Smack's post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
...But I will honestly tell you - I am both amazed and envious of the experiences you've had on the number of boats you've sailed.

You're the man.
...it's just really cool to get paid to captain other people's yachts. We're fortunate that he's an articulate and charitable blogger, since that enables us to share in his experience. I suspect there are mundane parts too, and some downright unpleasant work that needs to get done, but the whole concept of getting paid to captain others' yachts is about as cool as it gets.
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  #150  
Old 07-13-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Good advice....Practical advice...Common sense advice

We travel to New England and the LI Sound every summer for 3 weeks starting in the m middle of August to past Labor day. This is the heart of TS season. Most TS and hurricanes do not travel up the East Coast this far north, but there has been a change in the last few years and while most deal an offshore component, a few have actually targeted these areas.

In our trip planning I keep a wary eye south. We have bailout points north like the Hudson River, Connecticut River, Providence River should the need arise for us to head inland away from tidal surges should one of these storms head up the coast and we cannot get back to the Delaware River in a safe manner. This may even include a storm coming inland in NC many miles south, but affecting ocean conditions for 1500 miles, and it could even turn north.

Its important in that risk analysis scenario that's you have alternatives to choose rather than EVER risk weather situations. TS/ Hurricanes movements are not predictable in pinpoint accuracy like weather fronts and large leeway must given. Why risk it. Easier to stand pat or hide than outthink a named storm. No schedule should override that risk and enter the equation.
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