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post #51 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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However, it is quite the opposite... From Mile 0, the inside distance on the ICW to Morehead (where they would need to re-fuel that Island Packet trawler) is 204 statute miles... The distance out around Hatteras, Cape Lookout shoals, and back into Morehead is 70 statute miles longer... The discrepancy from Hampton Roads/Thimble Shoals would be slightly less, but the fact that the outside distance is so much longer for a boat planning a stop in Morehead or Beaufort is what makes their choice particularly difficult to fathom, to me...
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post #52 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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So rates will not be going up due to all the losses from Super Storm Sandy?

Similarly, if an insurance company sustains a number of significant losses paid out, there is no need to raise premiums?

Wow, I am learning something new every day!
My point was that ALL insurance rates will be affected, not just Boat US.

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post #53 of 160 Old 03-30-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

My point, which was partly in jest, is that a particular company that suffers sufficiently significant losses will have to raise premiums.

Losing a $500K boat, assuming its a complete loss, will be a significant hit for whichever company insured it.
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post #54 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

They are lucky to be alive. Glad they survived. Sad to lose a vessel.

The decision making process there is beyond my comprehension.

For an east coast captain to think Ocracoke, Oregon or Hatteras were viable inlets in those conditions is even scarier.
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post #55 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

The only reason to consider those inlets in a minimally powered vessel is to consider how to avoid them at all cost. Maybe you can think about it in a twin Cat diesel Blackfin that makes 30 knots, draws 3' and has the power to punch through but not with a sailboat with a little aux. diesel.

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post #56 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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The only reason to consider those inlets in a minimally powered vessel is to consider how to avoid them at all cost. Maybe you can think about it in a twin Cat diesel Blackfin that makes 30 knots, draws 3' and has the power to punch through but not with a sailboat with a little aux. diesel.
Yeah it's really skinny water behind Oregon.

I've made the cut through Roanoke channel and Old house channel behind Oregon Inlet drawing 3'11" and touched in a few spots when I let myself get distracted and the current pushed me toward the edge of the channel in flat calm conditions. I wouldn't want to be anywhere near there inside or out in those conditions.

The recreational fishing fleet buzzed by me, in the wee hours heading out the inlet with a lot of local knowledge, no doubt.

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Last edited by Tempest; 03-30-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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post #57 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

There's now a $200 peak fee to climb Denali (Mt. McKinley) or Mt. Foraker in Alaska's Denali Nat'l Park. Used to be free. The money goes to defray the cost of the Park's 'Mountaineering Management Program' -- which is to say, rescue services. See, so many doofuses were getting themselves in trouble on Denali -- dozens every season -- and radioing for rescue, the Parkies were going broke. The situation was made worse, not better, by the medical research tent at 14,000' (called the 'rescue tent' by hacks) and by the high altitude helicopter ('the Denali Llama') out of Talkeetna. Now any peak-bagging idiot is willing to throw themselves at Denali, which is a very serious undertaking. If it goes bad, they can call for a rescue!

NPS shut down the entire peak after a season where some twenty people died, most of them manifestly unqualified to be on the mountain. Then they re-opened it with qualification check and a rescue insurance requirement. Now they've moved to a peak fee system.

Don't think they won't. Don't think they can't. And don't think our non-sailing fellow citizens are going to shoulder these costs forever.

So, question: How would y'all feel about a nationwide (or worldwide) sailing-specific rescue insurance program? It could be public, it could be private. Premiums could be quite low, if enuf sailors subscribed. But the upshot would be something like this: if you buy the insurance, we will respond to your distress call at no charge. But if you choose NOT to buy the insurance -- and it is entirely voluntary, unlike Liability in many countries -- you may, at our discretion, be charged by the responding agency or private party up to 75% of the actual costs of your rescue. Low six figures, possibly.

Do you think that would help the problem? Or would we just have what we have now -- people pulling the Panic Lever early because the insurance will bail them out?

Europe has used such a program for backcountry activities for many years; it's not clear what effect it has on rescue rates, but it does at least shift the cost of those rescues where it properly belongs. If we cannot police ourselves someone will offer to do that for us. Certificates of Competence. Mandatory inspections. Liferaft requirements.

Don't want that? Let's figure out a better way, then. That doesn't necessarily mean a return to the 'Iron Men on Wooden Ships' ethos -- but something better than the present "Marshmallow Twits on Plastic Condos" might be in order. Eh?

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post #58 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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After the loss of Bounty, some incidents out in California, and now this, all in such a short span of time, there are some experienced skippers out there, saying that we are nearing a tipping point where the government and USCG may start imposing more regulation on offshore operations, or even inshore recreational sailing.

We do NOT want this. There is an unwritten rule in the sport rock-climbing world that seems very appropriate to sailing as well:



This person also made the salient point:



We'd better clean up our act, or we're going to find our sport under attack, and our freedoms infringed upon.

Yes, we all make mistakes but the "Dial 911 for minor troubles" attitude is going to ruin it for all of us.

Spread the word.
This story seems a bit slow news day by the papers, or maybe not. The fact that the newsies here seemed to take the guys at their word re experience hints at a bit of fridge magnet journalism.

I'm pretty certain these guys would be a lot less in the focus if they had avoided press on the issue.

I presume delivery captains are licensed? Would an incident such as this invalidate their license, or have it revoked? Who's insurance covers the loss here? Would the delivery captain be required to have liability insurance as he is an independent contractor? Does he then take the hit? or is it all on the owner? I don't know if i'd hand over my boat to a contractor on my own insurance policy. Maybe if there was some fault with the boat then liability could be shared but that doesn't seem to be the case here, and the consensus here seems to be that they were wrong to take the route they did in those conditions.

If this is on his head financially, do the commercial sailors share insurance companies with the recreational? doesn't seem fair that the recreational boater should cover the expense of a commercial loss via his insurance policy. would have thought that the two would be ring fenced from each other. Seems a bit like a public tax bank bailout kinda situation to me....

anyway. just some random thoughts....
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post #59 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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There's now a $200 peak fee to climb Denali (Mt. McKinley) or Mt. Foraker in Alaska's Denali Nat'l Park. Used to be free. The money goes to defray the cost of the Park's 'Mountaineering Management Program' -- which is to say, rescue services. See, so many doofuses were getting themselves in trouble on Denali -- dozens every season -- and radioing for rescue, the Parkies were going broke. The situation was made worse, not better, by the medical research tent at 14,000' (called the 'rescue tent' by hacks) and by the high altitude helicopter ('the Denali Llama') out of Talkeetna. Now any peak-bagging idiot is willing to throw themselves at Denali, which is a very serious undertaking. If it goes bad, they can call for a rescue!

NPS shut down the entire peak after a season where some twenty people died, most of them manifestly unqualified to be on the mountain. Then they re-opened it with qualification check and a rescue insurance requirement. Now they've moved to a peak fee system.

Don't think they won't. Don't think they can't. And don't think our non-sailing fellow citizens are going to shoulder these costs forever.

So, question: How would y'all feel about a nationwide (or worldwide) sailing-specific rescue insurance program? It could be public, it could be private. Premiums could be quite low, if enuf sailors subscribed. But the upshot would be something like this: if you buy the insurance, we will respond to your distress call at no charge. But if you choose NOT to buy the insurance -- and it is entirely voluntary, unlike Liability in many countries -- you may, at our discretion, be charged by the responding agency or private party up to 75% of the actual costs of your rescue. Low six figures, possibly.

Do you think that would help the problem? Or would we just have what we have now -- people pulling the Panic Lever early because the insurance will bail them out?

Europe has used such a program for backcountry activities for many years; it's not clear what effect it has on rescue rates, but it does at least shift the cost of those rescues where it properly belongs. If we cannot police ourselves someone will offer to do that for us. Certificates of Competence. Mandatory inspections. Liferaft requirements.

Don't want that? Let's figure out a better way, then. That doesn't necessarily mean a return to the 'Iron Men on Wooden Ships' ethos -- but something better than the present "Marshmallow Twits on Plastic Condos" might be in order. Eh?
A worldwide system is patently absurd as the costs of the rescue would vary so much from place to place that you'd have people based in cheaper areas subsidizing people who live in expensive areas.

On the rock climbing front, america in particular seems to be privatizing all aspects of recreation. Soon, you won't be able to walk up the street without personal accident and liability insurance, further pushing the inactive obese populace away from the healthy excercise they need to keep them healthy.

Here (I believe), UK and europe, If it is a genuine emergency, where a person experienced in the environment would not be reasonably able to extricate themselves from the situation, the government picks up the tab for the rescue. If a person has knowingly, or through willful ignorance gotten themselves into a situation they can't handle or were unprepared for, and gotten in over their heads, they are expected to fork out for the rescue. AFAIK. At least I would expect to have to fork out for the rescue...

This can be assessed after the fact, and shouldn't mean that you have to restrict access....
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post #60 of 160 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

hmm...Something to ponder.

I can remember a time when the coast guard would provide towing assistance and misc help to stranded vessels. As it became clear that the numbers of incidents were rising and CG stations were closing, they ceased and now we have Tow Boat US and Sea Tow etc.

While those private companies fill that void nicely, at reasonable costs; I don't see the private sector doing what the coasties just did for these guys via helicopter rescue at great risk to themselves. Your point regarding regarding insurance creating a false sense of security and possibly encouraging more incidents is a good one. I think with epirb, sat phones and successful rescues, like this one, we've already created a false sense of security.

With rescue insurance, suddenly we'll have people trying to sue the coast guard for not rescuing them in a timely fashion. " I had insurance".

With regard to folks buying " rescue insurance" ; one of the problems Hurricane Sandy has revealed here in NJ, at least, and undoubtedly elsewhere is that many of the lost boats were not even registered or insured. Which has led people to simply abandon them on the side of the road, in the middle of a wetland etc. some of them rather large vessels.
The reaction to that may eventually be mandatory insurance like we have with cars.
The marinas were supposed to check ( as per their insurance rules) but many of them were apparently not diligent in that.

All that to say...I don't have any solutions..

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