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  #71  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

That was great coverage. You rarely see a detailed and knowledgable story like that in a daily. The links were great too. Thumbs up to the Baltimore Sun!
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  #72  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by eherlihy View Post
I am not going to armchair QB these guys... I wasn't there at the time in those conditions. I'll leave it at that. Somewhere in the reading that I did, I picked up that these guys were getting paid $7K for the delivery, and that the owner is supportive of their efforts, and decision to ditch.

Island Packet DOES build SOME bluewater boats. However the SP Cruiser ain't one of 'em.

Essentially the SP cruiser is a trawler with a bigger mast and a sail;

These were introduced in 2008, and seem to be targeted at the crowd that can't decide if they want a sailboat, or a trawler (or a Winnebago). 41' LOA and 3' 8" draft, with 110HP diesel.

Not my cup of tea, but Island Packet seems to be selling a bunch of them. Prices in YW range from $300K to $625K.
I think they are kind of cool.
So, then... can we presume that the actual ability to Sail may not top the list of priorities you'd have in the selection of a boat? (grin)

Still, one has to admire Alvah Simon's diplomacy in characterizing the SP Cruiser's hybrid nature in his review in CRUISING WORLD:

Quote:
The SP wasn't designed to sail to windward, and it didn't perform well on this point of sail, as the 714 square feet of sail area couldn't compensate for the substantial weight and windage. The sail plan, however, does add stability, distance, and redundancy to the boat's motoring range.
It's been my experience that, generally, powerboats tend not to function very well as sailing craft... And, the SP Cruiser is, first and foremost, a powerboat... IP also sells them without the rig, calling them a PY Cruiser, enough of a powerboat to be reviewed in POWER & MOTORYACHT magazine...

Island Packet PY 41

I found this little tidbit at the close of the review particularly interesting... Sounds like IP has their finger on the pulse of the future of sailing, alright:

Quote:
The PY Cruiser is not the only highly efficient vessel Island Packet's recently put on the market. There's also the SP (Sail Power) Cruiser, a sloop-rigged vessel that's virtually the same as the PY in terms of layout, design, and horsepower as well as speed and fuel burn under power. But the SP also sails almost effortlessly. Say you're chugging along and decide to nix the Yanmar and switch to wind power. Simply round up into the breeze, leave the helm for the cockpit momentarily, load the lines into the Lewmar electric winch, and then return to the helm to tweak arrangements with push buttons as you proceed. Could there be anything as easy—and as fuel efficient—as fully electric sail controls? Well, yeah. According to Island Packet, the company will introduce a version of the SP Cruiser within a year or so that will virtually sail herself. Thanks to constant digital input from a wind indicator at the top of the mast as well as some serious computer firepower, the boat will electrically operate her own winches, trim her own sheets, perhaps even decide when to tack based on course information arriving via GPS. All you'll have to do is steer!
Still, hard to imagine a less suitable vessel for being outside of Hatteras when the view from space looks like this:



On a 'sailboat' with that sort of windage, and a Ballast/Displacement Ratio of TWENTY-FOUR Percent??? Seriously?

Not to mention, that jacuzzi-style cockpit behind the mast, above deck level? Bet that sucker could capture a significant amount of water in heavy weather, and the only real means of evacuating it quickly would be to 'spill' it out under an extreme angle of heel...

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Last edited by JonEisberg; 03-31-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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  #73  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
So, then... can we presume that the actual ability to Sail may not top the list of priorities you'd have in the selection of a boat? (grin)

Still, one has to admire Alvah Simon's diplomacy in characterizing the SP Cruiser's hybrid nature in his review in CRUISING WORLD:



It's been my experience that, generally, powerboats tend not to function very well as sailing craft... And, the SP Cruiser is, first and foremost, a powerboat... IP also sells them without the rig, calling them a PY Cruiser, enough of a powerboat to be reviewed in POWER & MOTORYACHT magazine...

Island Packet PY 41

I found this little tidbit at the close of the review particularly interesting... Sounds like IP has their finger on the pulse of the future of sailing, alright:



Still, hard to imagine a less suitable vessel for being outside of Hatteras when the view from space looks like this:



On a 'sailboat' with that sort of windage, and a Ballast/Displacement Ratio of TWENTY-FOUR Percent??? Seriously?

Not to mention, that jacuzzi-style cockpit behind the mast, above deck level? Bet that sucker could capture a significant amount of water in heavy weather, and the only real means of evacuating it quickly would be to 'spill' it out under an extreme angle of heel...

I hope you posted all of that with your little pinky stuck out, and a cup of tea in your hand.

This is going to come as a HUGE SHOCK to you. But, many people sail in very fairly protected waters, and they are not bad people. Many people sail, who are older, again, and they are not bad people, and with a protected cockpit, can sail in more inclement weather. And, some people, after years of sailing to weather on the high moral principal of it, now are older and prefer to just motor into it. They are not bad people.

I think we are in agreement that you probably shouldn't try and sail the IP SP around Cape Horn in the winter.

But, I have seen nothing in your argument to refute my comment that it is a cool boat, other than your opinion that any sailboat not ready to take on Force 10 conditions, is a silly piece of pooh.
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  #74  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post

This is going to come as a HUGE SHOCK to you. But, many people sail in very fairly protected waters, and they are not bad people. Many people sail, who are older, again, and they are not bad people, and with a protected cockpit, can sail in more inclement weather. And, some people, after years of sailing to weather on the high moral principal of it, now are older and prefer to just motor into it. They are not bad people.

I think we are in agreement that you probably shouldn't try and sail the IP SP around Cape Horn in the winter.

But, I have seen nothing in your argument to refute my comment that it is a cool boat, other than your opinion that any sailboat not ready to take on Force 10 conditions, is a silly piece of pooh.
Actually, I am in agreement with you that it is a pretty cool boat (although how they command prices of $500K or more is completely beyond me). If I were to ever have the means to afford any boat to do the Great Loop, for example, that boat could very well be on the short list - without the mast, of course (grin)... But perhaps you've missed the point both eherlihy and myself are trying to make...

Namely, that hybrid is not a "sailboat", but rather a 'semi-displacement' trawler with a mast, or perhaps what many might classify as a motorsailer... And, there's good reason why 'motor' comes before 'sailer' in that terminology... You're right, there's definitely a place in the market for such boats, there's nothing 'wrong' with the people to whom they appeal, and I will consider myself lucky should I ever live long enough to consider owning such a boat... But, that time will not come for me, until such time as I've reached the point where I'm resigned to the fact that it's time to give up Sailing, aside from the occasional burst of the illusion of doing so, and only under the most optimal conditions imaginable...

So, in summary, I just think it's a pretty safe bet, that I am unlikely to EVER see a SP Cruiser under sail alone.... (grin)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 03-31-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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  #75  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
WHAT A LOAD OF BS....Someone makes an error in judgement, gets in trouble and call's on the rescue authorities (in this case Coast Guard). I am almost amazed at the predictability of their cry's of foul from the obviously well informed and well traveled, seasoned sailors on this and every other similar forum. This in turn morphs into cost of the rescue and who should pay(No one should pay its humanity), followed by how this will effect ME in the pocket with increased insurance(bad luck if you want insurance pay you dues), and an atrocious drain on the public purse to fund these rescues of our fellow man( the cost of rescues has already been budgeted for in the yearly running cost). May I say If it is such an affront that our fellow man will at some time come unstuck and need help of some description then why not disband the Coast Guard and perhaps the Navy or all armed forces with a rescue component. Lets make it Law that only those that can pay to be rescued, be rescued. we could include Ambulance and fire fighters, No money no help. How about Police lets have them only protect the important people that can Pay for their time, If you dial 911 or 999 or 000 it will be $100 for the first 15min then $100 for each hour or part there of. Most of us are humanitarian and have ethics and will do what we can for our fellow man. People make mistakes and things do not always go as planed. Those guys would not have agreed with each other to go out and get rescued, loose the beautiful boat and be ridiculed by these adventurous folk bashing away on their keyboards. We have rescue services because we need them, the civilized world would be a sad place without these brave and caring souls who put their lives on the line for everyone, no questions asked. And they do it because they love it. Thanks for letting me rant I need it.
It is always good to hear the other side of the argument; it is refreshing. The down side of reading too much of the forum is that we begin to scare of our own shadow. It certainly sucks the fun out of sailing. I certainly would not go out purposely to kill myself and looking for rescue. However, I would not feel guilty if I need to be rescued since I have pay my share of taxes. Besides, CG has strict protocols not to ensure the safety of the crews and equipment.

I am just sayin'.
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  #76  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Would they have been so quick to call the Coast Guard if they knew they would have to reimburse the costs?

The Coast Guardsman puts their lives in danger every time they have to go out and save some fools who shouldn't be out there in the first place and is calling as a matter of convenience rather than necessity. These delivery captains could have toughed it out and avoided this whole rescue, or better yet, not departed when they did.
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  #77  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Would they have been so quick to call the Coast Guard if they knew they would have to reimburse the costs?

The Coast Guardsman puts their lives in danger every time they have to go out and save some fools who shouldn't be out there in the first place and is calling as a matter of convenience rather than necessity. These delivery captains could have toughed it out and avoided this whole rescue, or better yet, not departed when they did.
Under international law mariners are required to come to the assistance of others. Some countries have severe penalties for not doing so. In Canada the maximum fine is $1,000,000.

But discretion does need to be the better part of valour.
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  #78  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

interesting thread....a couple thoughts....I've never once heard a coastie express any resentment over having to go out because some shoe clerk made a bad decision.....I don't believe in " blue water boats " per se.....I believe in blue water sailors & any boat in the right hands is a blue water boat . If anything the " blue water boat " is more a function of the seamanship of who's handling it & less about the boat . Finally....people who think all problems can be solved with more regulation should grow a brain .
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  #79  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Appreciate kjano's point of view but do believe certain boats are created with the intention of blue water passagemaking and others are not. Agree the crew must have the knowledge base to utillize the design but if the vessel is not suitable what maybe uncomfortable on a Valiant,Swan, Passport,Hylas,Outbound,Trinella etc. (pick your poison) is untenable on this particular IP design. From what little I understand motorboats "hove to" by heading into the wave front (at a slight angle) and varying throttle as the waves come through or lying to a sea anchor. Agree with suitiable searoom they could run under bare poles and drogues. Suspect they did not have suitable equipment and had limited fuel. Hence, with this design their options were limited.Others have commented they had no business being-
out there
on this design
without full tanks
without safety equipment ( e.g. drogues/sea anchor etc) - (My presumption)

All may be true (but wonder is there "the rest of the story"). Of more concern is my uncertainty as to how to vet transport captains. This story serves as an example how "professionals" placed themselves, others and the vessel under their charge in harms way. Any advice on how owners can protect themselves from similar occurences? If you are vetting a captain could you ask your insurance company or the CG or other agency to see if that individual had been involved in such an event?
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Last edited by outbound; 03-31-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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  #80  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

I am fairly certain a Google search on their names would reveal this event, so they can now be vetted.

When hiring a delivery captain for a sailboat delivery, it may be a good idea to find out if the captain can actually sail a boat.

How about posing a hypothetical question to the delivery captain? Let's say you get caught offshore in a gale, no engine, no battery, and one of you who weighs 300 lbs. rebounds off the cabin bulkhead (pretty much what you should expect in any storm). What do you do?

If they answer, call the Coast Guard to come pick me up pretty please, and leave your $500K yacht to fend for itself, you hire someone else.
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 03-31-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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