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  #81  
Old 03-31-2013
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

5yrs. from now not certain these folks will be listing this event on their C.V.s. If they were crew not captain google search may be uninformative as their name may not have appeared in the lay press.Would also suspect not all such events are reported. Unfortunate events occur where it is appropriate that the captain/crew be held harmless. What I'm asking is there a record of a Court of Inquiry or other public record of formal judgment on such events one can refer to in vetting these "professionals". Agree there is amble reason to believe the owner of the IP did not do his due diligence befoe hiring these guys.
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Last edited by outbound; 03-31-2013 at 04:37 PM.
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  #82  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Here's a question that I'm sure I'll get abuse for.

If I am engaged in a potentially dangerous, commercial venture, should I, or my insurance be expected to foot the rescue bill if it all goes wrong?

As an aside, If the carcass of the boat is now coughed up on an eastern seaboard shore, who foots the bill for the recovery/cleanup/disposal? The delivery captain who abandoned her, or the the owner?
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  #83  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Allio,

There are plenty of private and commercial enterprises that receive assistance from 1st responders: Fire Fighters, EMT's, Police, etc. without receiving an invoice for their services. The Coast Guard has a long history of assisting mariners ( 1830's). I suppose you could consider state, local or federal taxes as the bill, if you wanted.

I'm just guessing that an insurance claim has been filed and it's now a salvage job. I don't know all the ins and outs of that. I suppose the ins. could hire a salver to retrieve the vessel if they chose. I believe if someone gets their 1st, it's their claim.
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  #84  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by allio View Post
Here's a question that I'm sure I'll get abuse for.

If I am engaged in a potentially dangerous, commercial venture, should I, or my insurance be expected to foot the rescue bill if it all goes wrong?
Yes, that's why you have insurance as a commercial operator to begin with (assuming you're insured in the first place).


Quote:
As an aside, If the carcass of the boat is now coughed up on an eastern seaboard shore, who foots the bill for the recovery/cleanup/disposal? The delivery captain who abandoned her, or the the owner?
I would assume that the insurer would pay for that, and that the insurance rates for that particular commercial venture takes such things into account.

Nevermind, I see you specifically said rescue bill, which is another matter. I'm not so sure on where I stand on that.

Last edited by One; 03-31-2013 at 07:16 PM.
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
5yrs. from now not certain these folks will be listing this event on their C.V.s. If they were crew not captain google search may be uninformative as their name may not have appeared in the lay press.Would also suspect not all such events are reported. Unfortunate events occur where it is appropriate that the captain/crew be held harmless. What I'm asking is there a record of a Court of Inquiry or other public record of formal judgment on such events one can refer to in vetting these "professionals". Agree there is amble reason to believe the owner of the IP did not do his due diligence befoe hiring these guys.
Then again people do learn from their mistakes.
At least some do.
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What was Washington's real strength was that he never gave up. He kept an army in the field for six years, against numerous defeats and extreme difficulties and hardships. As one of his men said "We fight, get beat, rise up and fight again". Eventually this convinced the British that they could never subdue the vast territory of America, and so they finally gave up.

I'm just saying that the chances of a delivery captain getting a run on perfectly good weather, with no time limits, with favorable prevailing wind and current at the right time of year, with plenty of easy to access ports on the way is pretty slim.

That is when the owner grabs a couple of buddies and goes for a fun sail.
No the delivery skipper gets called when the boat has just been bought, the yard finished up yesterday, against the current and prevailing wind, unsettled weather and a deadline.

So now this delivery skipper has to decide if his mortgage being late three months is more of a risk to his health that a particular delivery.
In one sense it is their job to push the boundaries, they should be able to pull it off as they are professionals but they are not going to win every time.
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Last edited by davidpm; 03-31-2013 at 07:37 PM.
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Exemptions could always be built in for acts of god. Striking a whale that rips off your keel for example. But weather is, by and large now, a quantifiable and predictable thing. And therefore the fact that your government has placed at your free disposal, access to this knowledge, makes you even more liable if you ignore such services.

As regards emt's/police etc etc, All of these services now implement a bill for services rendered if fault is found in the US I believe. If you have a car crash, and require emergency transport to the hospital, does your insurance not get a bill? Someone pays for the treatment you receive at the hospital. And this is why we have investigations after the fact, to determine if someone was at fault. And should therefore be liable.

Either way, I'm just playing a bit of devils advocate here.....
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Wow, you guys are tough. If you have never experienced those conditions you can't believe how hard it is on your body and how mentally taxing it is. I don't think the delivery captain exhibited good judgement but I don't fault him for making the call to get rescued.

I was in a similar situation in conditions a little worse 8 years ago. Delivery from St. Thomas to the Chesapeake- all off shore in the first week of April. Brutal gale for 3 days. The boat was fine but we got pretty beat up even though we had a pilothouse on boat with a 10-1/2 foot keel. Trying making a sandwich in those conditions. Forget about sleeping. Taking a crap is strenuous exercise. I went air born more than once including crashing through the mid ship head door.

Doing it in an IP semi-trawler is quite another thing. I'd be scared that the boat would trip on the occasional rogue wave for starters. The motion must be rolly as all hell. Anything in the tank would get sucked into the filters without a doubt. We had 4 tanks, a tank mender, pumps etc so that we could switch fuel sources and filter systems on the fly.

Bottom line is that these guys made some wrong calls due to inexperience and/or fatigue. It might be a while before they would even consider another delivery job on a similar route.
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
No the delivery skipper gets called when the boat has just been bought, the yard finished up yesterday, against the current and prevailing wind, unsettled weather and a deadline.

So now this delivery skipper has to decide if his mortgage being late three months is more of a risk to his health that a particular delivery.
In one sense it is their job to push the boundaries, they should be able to pull it off as they are professionals but they are not going to win every time.
In this circumstance, the delivery captain had alternatives, The ICW, staying in port, heaving to. Eitherway, any business dependent on weather for delivery schedule, will have a clause in the purchase contract re weather disruption. If the the boat has not left the yard with enough time to spare for a safe delivery then the yard should be liable. In your scenario the yard also had options. But here I believe it was the owner who hired the delivery crew?

I completely disagree that commercial delivery services should be looking to "push the boundaries". Remembering that they are delivering someone elses property (and dreams!) should be front and foremost.

I doubt anyone here who has large sums of money invested in marine hardware is looking for a crew who pushes the boundaries.
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  #89  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

Wthout knowning the interactions of the parties involved I believe I am not in a position to be judgmental beyond noting from what information is available the owner hired these guys to deliever his boat and his boat was lost. I don't think it is appropriate to question their judgement if they felt their lives were at risk. You can replace a material object but not lives. I am interested in how the judgement was made to leave on that day, by that route, in that boat at that level of preparation. I'm am interested in what factors were in play. I'm also interested beyond google search and references what an owner should and can do to protect such a major asset.
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  #90  
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Re: Sailboat perishes off Hatteras, USCG rescues crew

I have delivered many boats since the mid-70s. I always make sure that the owner or owners understand that different routes may be taken for valid reasons such as weather or shallow water and currents. This holds true for both sailboats and power vessels. It is the captains duty to use more than one means of predicting weather for different routes as well as the depth of the water,and navigation waypoints. The first question that is always asked is how long will it take, as I always have charged by the day. That is the time to make it perfectly clear that it depends on many factors, as well as possible breakdowns. I will give them they estimated time of arrival, in reality that is all anyone can do.

As far as judging whether or not to abandon ship the rule of thum usually is, (was human life in intimate danger? Were there any injuries to any of the crew or Capt., was the vessel in seaworthy condition such as maybe changing course to mitigate the circumstances. Am I able to anchor the vessel to also mitigate the circumstances? In history there have been many decisions Made under a panic or extreme pressure that may not turn out to be the correct decision. Only the captain and the crew can make that decision, whether to abandon ship or not. I myself cannot make any judgment because I wasn't there, and I definitely don't have all the information. CaptG
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