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A couple wisely decides to head back in...

5K views 43 replies 28 participants last post by  sww914 
#1 ·
Here is a good video of a captain making a wise decision to return to port after experiencing conditions that made for an uncomfortable ride:

 
#2 ·
Seems to me the "wise" decision would have been to not go out. They saw exactly what the weather forecast said it was going to be like. I hope she was not hurt when trying to get the jib out, looked like she caught herself with her face, ouch. That is why you check the weather before heading out, but I think just looking would have been enough to determine it was a bad idea.
 
#5 ·
Seems to me the "wise" decision would have been to not go out. They saw exactly what the weather forecast said it was going to be like.
The video said the forecast was for 20-25 out of the South. Not necessarily hunker-down-in-port conditions for every boat and crew. They seemed in control the whole time. I think it was more that they didn't want to sail for 47 hours in those conditions, which were worse than they had anticipated via the forecast and visually looking at the entrance.
 
#4 ·
Those are normal winter conditions around here. No breakers they say gusting 40 but I don't see the sea that would raise. It seems to me 25 to 30K. The waves are nor even big for what is usual in winter (15 to 20ft is quite usual).

They turned around because they feel not like to go on not because it was dangerous. And they needed not sail for 50 hours either. They had two ports that would remain Open with much worse conditions at about 13/17 hours and both with an easy entrance (Nazaré and Peniche).

Yes that is a dangerous coast and frequently on winter it is better to sail directly from Porto or Leixões to Nazaré (85Nm) or Peniche (115NM) without trying to enter Figueira da Foz were waves can form on the river mouth.

With some wind it is better to sail well away from the shore (6Nm). Waves are a lot steeper near.
 
#6 ·
Interesting video, I think it was reasonable to go out for a look and to turn around. They certainly looked like they knew what they were doing and were well in control. There is a big difference between returning because you think the conditions are dangerous and returning because it would be uncomfortable - 47 hours of that would not be fun especially if they had to handsteer. No idea what the autopilot would be on that boat. It looks like a pretty light and lively boat.
 
#19 ·
I happen to know Justin and Chris, absolutely wonderful people, and very capable sailors... First met them about a dozen years ago when they were living aboard a Valiant 32 in Seattle, and had just returned from a cruise to Mexico... Both are very athletic and fit, having competed in triathlons for years, and such fitness serves them very well when cruising in such a boat...

SHEARWATER is a J-120, they've done some nice videos from their very fast Atlantic passage... Chris obviously has little fear of leaving the cockpit and going forward, and their vids showing reefing in 30-35 knots makes apparent that even with lines led aft, you're gonna have to leave the cockpit eventually... (grin) Justin went with a custom-spec'd NKE autopilot, pretty much the same setup used by the solo RTW sailors in the Vendee and similar events... Very serious, analytical approach to SAILING - by today's standards, their boat is relatively spartan, and lacks many of the amenities considered to be 'essentials' by most cruising couples today... Very much the same approach applied by Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger, actually... For those who actually go places, Sailing still appears to be the top priority...

I would not have voluntarily left that day. Cruising has no schedule.
In their particular case, it did... They were attempting to deliver the boat to Gibraltar to meet a ship, and have the boat shipped back to the States...

Makes their decision to return seem even wiser and more considered in hindsight, others might have been blinded by the perceived need to meet the schedule...
 
#10 ·
I've sailed past Porto, nasty business that.
I've sailed in Annapolis, and in Portugal, but not between the two, so I'm not as experienced as they are by a long shot.

I would not have voluntarily left that day. Cruising has no schedule.
 
#17 ·
Had the forecast been accurate, I think they were more than up to the passage. 20 to 25 knots are not extreme conditions. In those conditions they could have kept up their watchkeeping and stayed fresh (relatively) for the duration of the passage.

Based on the forecast they had, they went and took a peek, finding out they forecast was not so good. Still the boat was always well under control even when the actual conditions were far above what was anticipated based on the forecast. Even though they had planned adequately to manage the boat, I think they realized they would not be able to maintain any sort of watch system in those condtitons and, because crusing has no schedule, decided to return to port.

To me, that indicates, excellent seamanship, knowledge of thier vessel and crew capabilites and good judgement. You have to make decsions on what you know at the time, and be wiling to adjust your plan when things turn out different than expected. That's exactly what they did.

Would I have left port that day? Probably not, but then I'm sitting behind a computer screen and have not sailed my boat across the Atlantic.
 
#13 ·
Pretty nasty wave action so I likely would have turned back as well or not gone out... with just two on board, but they really needed to get that main flattened out and the sheet in tight. They got away with it because they had a deep reef in but really it was not doing much for them.
 
#14 ·
Is it just me or is that reefed main not flat enough? That draft looked deep for the conditions and really far aft, even before the headsail was backwinding it. Their reef clew pulls aft, but I think it doesn't pull far enough aft. A common rigging mistake IMHO.

Great video. Looks like they knew what they were doing, but 47hrs of that wouldn't be "cruising" now would it? :)

MedSailor
 
#20 ·
..
Great video. Looks like they knew what they were doing, but 47hrs of that wouldn't be "cruising" now would it? :)

MedSailor
As I have explained they did not need to sail 47 hours non stop, they had plenty places where they could stop safely, being those 85 miles to Nazaré probably the longest leg till Gibraltar.

But as Jon explained they were delivering a boat, the wind was not favorable (as it is not mostly of winter here going South) and they probably will prefer to do it in only one leg.

For what I have saw the conditions, giving the boat and their skill were doable if they had too, but very disagreeable and uncomfortable and I believe that it was the reason that they had turned back.

15 days ago solo sailors with smaller boats passed along this shore in more nasty conditions, but they had too;)

The conditions along this coast have been like that for months, this is one of the worst winters in many years. Yesterday and today are as bad (or worse) than on that day. That's why they are talking about April. I hope the nasty weather go away and they can make it with sunshine and good wind and sea conditions but given the instability of the weather I guess it would not be a bad idea to do the voyage in smaller legs taking advantage of shorter periods with favorable conditions.

Regards

Paulo
 
#15 ·
Usually no need to have a flattened main when deep reefed.
On the contrary, if deep reefed and flattened a sail will have little 'drive'/power for upwind work, ... especially if in big waves or very steep chop.

1. Flat sails are for 'speed sailing' in relatively flat water (think of this as a 'high gear' shape);
1a. full drafted or increased draft is for 'power' to punch through when in steep/big waves (think of this as low or lower gear shape).
The outhaul(s) can be equated to your 'gear selector' in an automobile.
To 'best' do this, adjust your outhaul to get the maximum speed from your knotmeter; otherwise, you can wind up being in high gear when you want to go 'up' a big hill. ....

(Obviously when not racing, you dont want to go very much beyond 'hull speed' in a displacement boat, etc. etc. etc.)

2. Reefing controls the amount of heeling.

Two different functions controlling two entirely different issues.

;-)
 
#21 ·
It seems like every time you post, I learn something. ;)

After I posted about mainsail shape, I was thinking, "it was the pounding from the tall steep wave profile that sent them packing, not heel or lack of control". That was likely a function of the lightweight boat and it's flat-bottomed hull.

I wonder if my Formosa 41 with its finer clipper bow entry and full keel would have fared any better? Methinks the teeth would still be loosening from our skulls and with wife and kids aboard, at this point in our sailing career, we would have turned back earlier than they did. :)

Medsailor
 
#16 ·
With their obvious experience I don't fault them for going out for a look-see, I would not with my non-existent experience. After seeing the way they were bounced around I sure don't blame them for heading back in though.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Many times I've gone out purposely in challenging conditions just to see how challenging they are.
Sometimes from the shore it looks really bad and when you get out their is's not so bad. Other times it looks benign from shore but when you get out there its a lot worse than it looks like.
The only way to learn is to take a look.

As long as you have a plan "B" there is no harm done.
If you push it a little when you have options you learn stuff.

If you never push it you can accumulate one years experience ten times rather than ten years experience.

Not that there is anything wrong with being ultra conservative and not ever taking any chances, to each there own.
 
#31 · (Edited)
That attitude is one that would serve every sailor - especially any who might have aspirations of venturing offshore - very well... Purposefully setting out in near-gale or gale conditions will ultimately pay off in spades...

Never ceases to amaze, in reading accounts of events such as the Caribbean 1500, how many participants wind up attempting to do something as elemental as heaving-to, for the very first time, EVER... Seems you'd want to seize the opportunity to experiment beforehand with such a basic heavy-weather tactic, when you can do so in the relatively controlled conditions of your own time and choosing, rather than being ultimately compelled to do so 500 miles from land, at night, for the first time...

A tragedy like that which befell RULE 62 might possibly been averted, had the skipper taken his crew out one dirty day when it was blowing like stink, given them a foretaste of what was to come, and figured out how to make the boat heave-to or forereach comfortably and safely...
 
#23 ·
Growing up, in rough weather my Old Man was given to say:

"Kid, the boat's tougher than you are"

or, a slight variation:

"The boat can take it if you can"


It's been well-said here above, looks like the boat was tough enough and set up properly for the weather, but this experienced and seasoned crew of two, after getting a good taste of it, realized they didn't want to have to be that "tough" and run the risk of getting too cold and exhausted out there. Wise decision.
 
#24 ·
Here is a good video of a captain making a wise decision to return to port after experiencing conditions that made for an uncomfortable ride:
Thanks for posting. Excellent video, showing two experienced crews with great teamwork and total control of their boat. I wish my wife would and is willing to do this with me.

I totally disagree if anyone said they should have stayed in port. We are sailors. Knowing your risk and taking it has its reward. Life is boring sitting at the dock.

I am jut sayin'. :)
 
#25 ·
I agree. I would have gone out in that too (I enjoy that kind of weather, but my other half doesn't). I don't see a problem going out and check to see if it's too uncomfortable for a long stint. Personally I would probably have kept going, but with more than myself aboard, I would have returned too.

In other words, I think they made the right decisions all along.
 
#28 ·
I wouldnt be in agreement for 'well inboard' stanchions ... as that would be a 'functional' failure or give rise to an undue and increasing difficulty going forward, etc.

My practice is not to 'depend' on life lines, for me they only clearly illustrate a 'boundary' that I shouldnt exceed .... and I wear a bombproof (combo short & long) tether and harness. :)
 
#32 ·
I wouldnt be in agreement for 'well inboard' stanchions ... as that would be a 'functional' failure or give rise to an undue and increasing difficulty going forward, etc.
I don't mean so narrow you wouldn't be able to go forward, but rather, let's say, 18" from the edge on a modern, wide boat of average size.

My practice is not to 'depend' on life lines, for me they only clearly illustrate a 'boundary' that I shouldnt exceed .... and I wear a bombproof (combo short & long) tether and harness. :)
I don't have lifelines on my boat, and won't on the next one either, so I'm the same sort of person.
 
#30 ·
Oh, my!!, the video brings back memories of the commercial salmon troller my Dad and I had. We would go out the San Francisco ship channel, in the dark, in far worse stuff than in the video to "make money". About the dumbest thing I ever did. I am not religous but used to pray "Dear God, please get me out of this and I will never do it again". Well, he did and I lied.

Years later we sailed a Coronado 25 out the Gate for 10 years, but were a WHOLE lot more carefull about the sea conditions., Being pushed by a schedule or for other motives can be harmfull to one's health. A picture of a boat nearly identical to ours, below:

Paul T
 

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#33 ·
We have 30" lifelines on our boat and one advantage that I have not seen discussed is that they provide something to provide general support, ignoring catastrophic falls which is a different matter. The support ranges from just something to brace a thigh against when moving to in one case having something to hold onto when knocked down. For the latter, I was sitting on the side deck, two tethers attached, while adding extra ties to the dinghy (50+ knots will do that) when we knocked. It was nice to have a stanchion to hold onto, with arms and legs.
 
#34 ·
It was nice to have a stanchion to hold onto, with arms and legs.
Boy do I agree with that. That Bob Perry guy usually adds an angled support running to the caprail, etc. in addition to a stanchion base for a VERY wide base of support and to prevent stanchion rip-out.

I use a 'rock climber' mentality when on board: dont depend on nuthin' but your own arms and legs, have at least three of 'something' attached/connected/touching at all times and only one arm or one leg 'moving' at a time. Doing a 'three point' all over the boat when its boisterous may look a bit weird but I prefer it to coming to an abrupt and sudden 'jerk' at the end of a 'line'/teather, etc.
 
#40 ·
Hi all. This is Justin from Shearwater.

Thanks for the really good comments and constructive feedback. That is the best reason for making videos like this - to create a great discussion about the events. This turned out to be a nice learning experience for us, and hopefully for others as well.

I wanted to add a little more information and basically agree with a few of the points raised.

1. I agree the lifelines are too loose. I noticed it the first time I watched the video (again that is what make videos so helpful). Already on the list to tighten them up a little when we get back to the boat.

2. I also agree the main is not as flat as it should be and that is because the reef line is not led far enough aft. I made a mental note right on the water in the harbor and added it to the list when we got back. While we've been sailing together for awhile now, we've haven't really sailed Shearwater that much yet at least not upwind in a blow.

3. Yes, there are certainly places to stop on the way south. The issue at the time was that entering somewhere like Nazare would have added an unfamiliar entrance in big seas, arriving potentially at night. So while we knew we could stop if we wanted, we didn't plan to. Also, the forecast showed no improvement in conditions for the next several days, so even if we had stopped somewhere, we would have had to wait a long time. It made more sense to just turn around, go back to familiar place, go back home to Madrid, and watch for better weather. Porto is only a 1 hour flight away.

5. It's been a week and the conditions still have not improved. A new Jeanneau 57 left the day after us heading south and turned right around. They left again two days later and turned around again. They are still in Porto and may not leave before we return.

6. In the end the issue was two-fold. First conditions were not as forecast (are they ever?). We used GFS gribs, PassageWeather GFS, COAMPS, and WRF, and PredictWind (so arguably 4 different models) and none of them showed wind exceeding 25 knots, but we never saw winds below 25 knots true once clear of the entrance and easily averaged 30 knots true. The secondary problem was, while the conditions at the time were manageable, the forecast was for a slight increase 12 hours later. The real issue though, was steering. I was doing fine once I put my feet in the right place, the boat handles beautifully and the sail plan was balanced really well. An autopilot or vane could have steered the boat easily, BUT neither an autopilot nor vane can see the waves and would have just sent us crashing directly through the worst spots, making no correction to avoid high spots or the low spots. That was something I hadn't considered before we departed. Trying to do that myself at night wouldn't have worked so well either. Plus sleeping and eating would have been miserable if not impossible. That was the clincher for us. We could handle the current situation, but over time and with any increase in conditions we would have been very uncomfortable. With a double-reef and #4 (80% or so jib) we were at our minimum working sail area. A great combination for 25-30, but if conditions worsened we would have to switch down to the storm jib and/or trysail and that just seems silly. Why use storm sails if you don't have to?

All in all, it was a great experience. No regrets. We did a number of things right, and a few things wrong and we learned from it in a reasonably controlled situation. We did want to push ourselves a little and we were prepared to be uncomfortable, but we do this for fun, so there comes a point...

I'm really glad we had the camera on and posted the video. I thoroughly enjoy it afterwards, again, and again, and again. :)
 
#42 · (Edited)
Nice of you to comment on your video. The weather has been unstable on the west coast of Portugal, with some good openings between frontal systems. Today is one of the good days. More rain in some days.

If you decide to do the voyage taking advantage of the nice days in between you will have some very protected ports that are easy to enter even with bad weather and you can anchor inside for a a couple of days.

You can enter Nazaré but the entrance even if not difficult is a bit tricky at night or even with daylight if the weather is not settled. On the right way in there is no breaking waves but just on the side huge waves can form. Just some more miles South you have Peniche. The entrance is straight forward unless in extreme weather, I mean 30ft waves. It is easy even at night. You can anchor inside and it is not expensive if you want to use the little marina.

Then you have Cascais bay that offers shelter on most conditions (an expensive marina too). On entering the Tejo river (Cabo Raso) don't come near the shore, but pass the cape 3 or 4 miles offshore. With wind against the river current some nasty conditions can take place there.

50 miles South you have Sines: Huge port easy entrance. Go for the inner port and just in front of the old town you can anchor in front of the beach. There is also a little marina, not very expensive and the town is very nice.

More 70Nm and you can anchor on Baleeira, or do more 20 and have an even better shelter in Portimão (on anchor). Portimão has also an expensive marina. From there you have 120NM to Cadiz.

Maybe you know all this already, but maybe not;).

Have a nice voyage.

Regards

Paulo
 
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