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Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
I like the Fortress with no ball on the ends because of the way I store them; I place them on edge in a locker with the arm through a hole in the floor. This has worked on 2 boats, but each is different.
Lol, that is freaking clever!

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I have a 35-pound Manson Supreme (32-foot, 8000-pound cat) and it seems about right. Since it will drag in soft mud on short scope, it is certainly not too big. Solid as hell in any good bottom.

Excellent. It means it's probably a-okay for my boat (although it weighs around the same, my boat has much lower windage than a catamaran).
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Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by One View Post
Excellent. It means it's probably a-okay for my boat (although it weighs around the same, my boat has much lower windage than a catamaran).
Yes, sounds right. 16-foot beam with a 7-foot tall bridge deck (including hard top enclosure).
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Ooops, my bad... No doubt I'm the sole reader of this thread who could have possibly construed what you wrote here...
Well, it ought to have been clear from post one.



Quote:
...to imply that you may think Vectran - being a "completely different thing" from Dyneema, and all - might possess some degree of elasticity that Dyneema lacks, and thus more suitable for what you have in mind...
No, I was talking about the setups: Having a Vectran sleeve around polyester or nylon rope versus having all dyneema. Those two setups are very different. Sorry if it wasn't clear in that particular sentence, but having had explained it about ten times before that sentence, it should have been obvious to most anyone able to read.


Quote:
As to your other points...

You're right, abrasion resistance is not the same as cut resistance... If you genuinely fear your rode being "cut" as opposed to being abraded in places where you routinely anchor (whether by sharp rock, or debris fouling the bottom, etc.) then you really should go with at least some amount of chain in your rode...
Sigh, I don't fear it. I think it's only prudent to consider a cut to a line reasonable.

Quote:
Yes, I'm aware that Cordura is a nylon... Thus, it would seem a good candidate for your desire to have your sleeve come close to matching the elasticity of your rode...
Except it would have to be sewn and as such be really, really stiff, and not really cut resistant.


Quote:
Not sure what the issue with the stitching of Cordura chafe sleeves would be... It most certainly does not add a perceptible degree of "stiffness" to the sleeves, they remain extremely pliable... More so than your leaded rode, no doubt...
yes, over short lengths and with a really, really loose fit. Now imagine having all that velcro or a seam with a reasonable fit, and you might see the problem I'm describing .


Quote:
Anyway, good luck with finding a supplier of Tubular Vectran... You'll save some time by skipping over the first few hundred hits for the term in a Google search, unless you happen to be in the market for some high-tech bicycle tires, as well...
First hit:

https://www.google.dk/search?q=vectr...ient=firefox-a

Donaghys Industries, Marine - Aquaculture Products – Manufacturers and Distributors

Second hit is this thread, then comes a pdf, and the fourth hit is this:

http://www.electriduct.com/Vectran-B...-Sleeving.html

Now, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Last edited by One; 03-30-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by One View Post
Well, it ought to have been clear from post one.

Sorry if it wasn't clear in that particular sentence, but having had explained it about ten times before that sentence, it should have been obvious to most anyone able to read.
Well, I'll tell you what... How about you try to work on your ability to express yourself clearly, and I'll try to work on my reading comprehension, OK?

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Originally Posted by One View Post
Sigh, I don't fear it. I think it's only prudent to consider a cut to a line reasonable.
Still sounds like a decent argument in favor of some chain, to me...

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Originally Posted by One View Post
No, not when you have all the answers beforehand, I suppose... I'm still trying to figure out why you started this thread in the first place...

Unless, it was to drop the hint that your next boat is gonna be one of those Carbon-Spritted Cost-is-No-Object Faberge' Egg-Style Daysailers Whose Elegance is Not Marred by Unsightly Lifelines and Anchors, perhaps?
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I'll tell you what... How about you try to work on your ability to express yourself clearly, and I'll try to work on my reading comprehension, OK?
Deal, but after having explained the same thing again and again, I think it's the comprehension skills that is lacking the most.


Quote:
Still sounds like a decent argument in favor of some chain, to me...
Sigh. Could it be that everything is a compromise, and I'm trying to find the best compromise possible for my needs?



Quote:
No, not when you have all the answers beforehand, I suppose... I'm still trying to figure out why you started this thread in the first place...
Read the first post and the subsequent posts, and you might get why. Hint: I was looking for experience and perhaps some good advice. Something I have received from some of you.

Edit: You mentioned how almost impossible it would be to find tubular vectran, and when I showed you how easy it was with the right search terms, it's now a question of me "showing off" and "having the answers beforehand". Nobody has the answers just because they can do a proper search in google and find some products. That doesn't mean everything then is set in stone. Hence me asking about experiences and thoughts on the matter. [End of edit]

Instead, you go on to this:

Quote:
Unless, it was to drop the hint that your next boat is gonna be one of those Carbon-Spritted Cost-is-No-Object Faberge' Egg-Style Daysailers Whose Elegance is Not Marred by Unsightly Lifelines and Anchors, perhaps?
What are you on about? I was mentioning the weight of the boat because it's somewhat important to the issue of anchoring, I was mentioning the carbon sprit, but pointing out it was "old-style" bowsprit with whisker stays, and bobstays, so it was clear that it wasn't one of those modern bowsprits which can be pulled inboard, that I wasn't going to drill into the bowsprit, and that I wasn't willing to place an anchor up there, after saving weight by going with CF rather than wood.

I also mentioned it was an old-style boat, but build modern, so you could understand why it was light, and why it was low, and, not least, why it was so narrow. I even mentioned it was a somewhat glorified dinghy, since it has no cabin whatsoever (nor a head or anything of the kind). How is that "faberge egg-style day sailor"? It's a boat I can take places, I can "camp" in, and play in big weather in. In other words, it's a boat that is fun to me. If I wanted to brag about it, perhaps I would have posted photos of it and told you more about it, wouldn't I?

Last edited by One; 03-30-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

You can buy Cordura "sleeve" easily. There is no seam to sew as it is already in tubular form. Just slide it over the rode. While we have a windlass we rarely use it. We also use a mixed rode as a primary. The chain is no harder on the hands than the rope rode...
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
You can buy Cordura "sleeve" easily. There is no seam to sew as it is already in tubular form. Just slide it over the rode. While we have a windlass we rarely use it. We also use a mixed rode as a primary. The chain is no harder on the hands than the rope rode...
Okay, I stand corrected. I have only seen velcro'd or sewn chafe protection. However, it doesn't solve the problem of cut resistance: It's still just nylon.

I find chain much harder on the hands than rope. I haven't tried stainless chain, though, because that would weigh even more for the same strength of galvanized (not that I want to get into a debate about that too).

Last edited by One; 03-30-2013 at 08:11 PM.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by One View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
Well, I'll tell you what... How about you try to work on your ability to express yourself clearly, and I'll try to work on my reading comprehension, OK?
Deal, but after having explained the same thing again and again, I think it's the comprehension skills that is lacking the most.
We're well past the point of ridiculousness here, but I'll bite once more... Here's your chance to help me out with my comprehension skills...


Quote:
...to imply that you may think Vectran - being a "completely different thing" from Dyneema, and all - might possess some degree of elasticity that Dyneema lacks, and thus more suitable for what you have in mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
No, I was talking about the setups: Having a Vectran sleeve around polyester or nylon rope versus having all dyneema. Those two setups are very different. Sorry if it wasn't clear in that particular sentence, but having had explained it about ten times before that sentence, it should have been obvious to most anyone able to read.
So, then, could you point to your explanation(s) where you speciified that your reference to Dyneema was regarding its use as a rode, whereas the reference to Vectran & Kevlar was regarding its use as a sleeve?

Any one of the numerous times that clarification was cited prior to the sentence/post I was responding to should suffice...

My apologies for eliciting so many "Sighs" from you... Dealing with slow learners like me must be the reason you're "always tired", eh?
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
So, then, could you point to your explanation(s) where you speciified that your reference to Dyneema was regarding its use as a rode, whereas the reference to Vectran & Kevlar was regarding its use as a sleeve?


Any one of the numerous times that clarification was cited prior to the sentence/post I was responding to should suffice...

I'm sorry I can't quote whole posts here, because apparently you want me to quote the entire thread, and then explain things to you once again.

But here goes a few (bold=my emphasis):

Thread title
Quote:
Vectran sleeve for anchor rode
For the follow parts, click on them to see where in the thread they are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
Hi, I just had a thought, being relatively satisfied with rope in my neighbourhood, only being nervous about having the rope cut by something.
[...]
What about a leaded anchor rode (as in "rope"), but having the lower half covered in Vectran, so as to protect against cuts? I mean, obviously, Dyneema won't work as it's not springy at all and is surprisingly easily cut, but Vectran or Kevlar (as used in stab proof vests) seems to be a completely different thing.

I'm not worried about the price of the sleeve (obviously), but I don't want to waste time ordering and installing the stuff (plus the splicing needed afterwards) only to find it was a waste of time and effort
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Originally Posted by One View Post
Particularly about the cutting resistance which is the whole point, and the weight of the boat I mention.
[...]
If you think about it, I'm asking for something easier for the hands than chain, weighted like chain, and with a cut resistance, if not equal to, then closer to chain than polyester or nylon.

[...]


It's an effort to think out of the box to gain most of the benefits of chain but without the drawbacks of chain, by keeping some of the good things about rope. Getting a weighted rode (as in inlaid lead), with a cut resistant outer is something that in theory ought to possible with something more modern than nylon or polyester. Or hemp, like in the "good old days" of 1963.
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Originally Posted by One View Post
Sigh, once again, go read the opening post. I was talking about a sleeve on the outside of the actual rope. A sleeve I would myself put over, making it lose, so the anchor rope within would continue to be able to give as it should. Hell, the thread title even uses the word "sleeve".

Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
I was thinking of checking the give in the core line, and then make the sheeve a given length (depending on how long the protective sheeve will need to be - could be 60 feet, for example), and then attach the end of which, 25 percent lower down on the core - in essense "pushing" it down a bit so it doesn't influence the core rope.


I was thinking leaded line from Liros to hold down the shank, but now when I think about it, I could test the cut and abrassion resistance by attaching a bigger sleeve around a piece of chain just to test it.


The boat will have a (carbon) bowsprit, but in an oldstyle, with bobstay, whisker stays and so on, so I will have to use a bridle or a snubber even with chain. I don't think I want the actual anchor rope to be high mod, although it would save some weight. There's a hole in the stem where the bobstay is fastened (it's actually fastened with dyneema), which ought to be big enough to be able to attach the snubber to. And it's a real low boat (it has no cabin or anything), so I will be able to reach that from lying on the foredeck.
If you notice here, I'm actually mentioning being able to lie down on the foredeck for a reason. But, oh no, that must be to "show off" according to you.

You want more posts to show how little you have understood in this thread? Okay, then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
Thanks, but I'm not talking Dyneema for the sleeve, I'm talking Vectran, which has a much higher cut resistence and a somewhat higher abrasion resistance. And it only needs to be "loose" around it, not super tight, and being pushed "down" towards the anchor, it will be at the slimmest (but still big enough) when the line is completely taught (as in no stretch left whatsoever).

I will look into the Dacron sleeves. I don't think I'm ready for a through-and-through Dyneema rope. Hell, just making something grip it at the snubber end will be problematic.

As for plastic making poor abrasion sleeves, I can only say that leather or, indeed, kevlar makes for great abrasion sleeves in general.
[...]
I will definately look into every sleeve I can think of, but I think Pdq had it right when he suggested I should look to the multihull crowd for experiences in this regard.
[...]
(yes, it truly is a fin keeled dinghy, lol) [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
Yup, hence I was looking at vectran and any other ideas such as the dacron suggestion.

It will be a loose sleeve, only stitched a little at both ends to stop it sliding off.


[...]
I never said it was springy, I was saying the actual anchor rope being springy. Think of a elasticated tether. The outer sleeve is longer than the relaxed state of the inner springy bit. In my use, however, the inner "elastic" will be the actual anchor rope, and the outer sleeve will be longer, relatively speaking, to the inner, so it will not at any point be taking any weight.


I want to match the stretch because I want to go a bit oversize, so that I can 1) minimise heat between sleeve and the rope, and 2), because I don't want the sleeve to influence the stretch of the actual rope.
Please continue to click on the small blue buttons to see where exactly those quotes are from? Do you want the final ones?

Okay, then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
I will probably end up having a bit of chain, at least as a back up rode. I'm still not too confident about having any part of the stuff being high modulus, though. But having "stuff" in three separate parts just might be the way to go. Couple this with PDQs suggestion of long nylon snubbers and I think we might be on to somethin.


Yes, I was thinking of stitching the sleeve with only a few stitches at both ends, so it could be pulled up and down easily with a few snips and just as easily stitched back - mostly because it would be an easy way to inspect the underlying rope for chafe. Perhaps it would be even easier to tape it, he he.


I'm still contemplating that sleeve over the chain idea. It would certainly make it easier to handle on deck by hand.
[...]
Regardless of anything else, I will be using snubber(s), simply because the boat has a bowsprit and bobstay, so I figure it's needed.[/b]
Notice how the bowsprit and bobstay is a relevant part of this? But to you I'm merely "showing off", right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by One View Post
Thanks, I do think I might end up having a covered piece of chain at the bottom, although I will do my utmost to find another solution, even if that means more inspection. I also think, that regardless what gear I end up with, I think a piece of chain to be attached will be the prudent thing to do, especially if leaving the boat for a couple of days. I would just prefer to not use it on a daily basis. Especially not a rough, uncovered chain.

See, it would have been much easier if you had been able to comprehend the thread title from the get-go, instead of trying to accuse me of "showing off" when I mention things that are relevant to the topic at hand, and when I showed you how to do a google search and find a type of product.

Also, it would have been much easier if you had actually reread the thread, instead of having me basically repost the entire thread so it could be spoonfed to you in bite sizes suitable to you.


Quote:
My apologies for eliciting so many "Sighs" from you... Dealing with slow learners like me must be the reason you're "always tired", eh?
Yes, I guess that must be the reason, not impatience with people insisting on misconstruing what is said.

Last edited by One; 03-30-2013 at 08:59 PM.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

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Originally Posted by One View Post
I find chain much harder on the hands than rope. I haven't tried stainless chain, though, because that would weigh even more for the same strength of galvanized (not that I want to get into a debate about that too).
Actually, with gloves there is little difference, even less if you get insulated freezer gloves (the padding they give is nice).



These and similar gloves have many uses around the boat.
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