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Old 03-29-2013
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Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

Hi, I just had a thought, being relatively satisfied with rope in my neighbourhood, only being nervous about having the rope cut by something.

Now, I figure I could use chain for the first bit, but I'd rather not.

I can say beforehand, that the boat I'm getting this for, is 43 feet, really slim (225cm/7'4") and weighs in at just over four tonnes. It's low, so not much windage.

I will handle my anchor with a winch, but no anchor roller, so the anchor itself will be lifted out of the water by hand, hence me thinking I might be able to get around the use of chain. The anchor itself will weigh around 15kg/33lbs. (and a slightly bigger for stronger winds).


What about a leaded anchor rode (as in "rope"), but having the lower half covered in Vectran, so as to protect against cuts? I mean, obviously, Dyneema won't work as it's not springy at all and is surprisingly easily cut, but Vectran or Kevlar (as used in stab proof vests) seems to be a completely different thing.

I'm not worried about the price of the sleeve (obviously), but I don't want to waste time ordering and installing the stuff (plus the splicing needed afterwards) only to find it was a waste of time and effort

P.S. I just know that someone will come along and rhetorically ask "Why don't you give it a try, and then report back to us", lol.
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Old 03-29-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

I'm not sure if this is a put-on or not, but I do not believe I have ever known anyone who uses only line to anchor a 40 odd foot boat, in over 50 years as a mariner.
You seem to have no understanding of the principles of anchoring and I would suggest you read some of the threads on anchoring and readjust your thinking, before you lose your boat.
If it is a put-on, then you got me; good on you.
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Old 03-29-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
I'm not sure if this is a put-on or not, but I do not believe I have ever known anyone who uses only line to anchor a 40 odd foot boat, in over 50 years as a mariner.
Oh, a "mariner"

Capta, don't think length, think weight. It's not a big boat. And we obviously sail in different waters.

Quote:
You seem to have no understanding of the principles of anchoring and I would suggest you read some of the threads on anchoring and readjust your thinking, before you lose your boat.
I am well aware of the principles of anchoring. However, I'm not circumnavigating, and I will be doing this by hand. Since you think I'm bluffing, and since you think that the "50 years as a mariner" somehow mmakes your right per definition, perhaps you should reread my post again. Particularly about the cutting resistance which is the whole point, and the weight of the boat I mention.

I also mentioned the width and height of the boat, because it is really narrow so it will cut through the waves at anchor, and the height of the thing, because windage, or lack of same, matters.

Unless I'm mistaken, Vectran, Spectra, Dyneema and so on, wasn't around for most of those 50 years as mariner. If you think about it, I'm asking for something easier for the hands than chain, weighted like chain, and with a cut resistance, if not equal to, then closer to chain than polyester or nylon.

Way to think out of the box. I'm done with wire in boats as well. I prefer more modern solutions (Dyneema, Spectra etc.).


Quote:
If it is a put-on, then you got me; good on you.
No, it's bloody well not a put on! It's an effort to think out of the box to gain most of the benefits of chain but without the drawbacks of chain, by keeping some of the good things about rope. Getting a weighted rode (as in inlaid lead), with a cut resistant outer is something that in theory ought to possible with something more modern than nylon or polyester. Or hemp, like in the "good old days" of 1963.

Edit: If you're wondering about the anchor, it's a Manson Supreme, and the backup is a Fortress type thing, so the weights should be plenty for my use.

Last edited by One; 03-29-2013 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Added a bit.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

To the best of my knowledge, none of the rope you have mentioned has any elasticity. 5 tons versus a 33 pound anchor (bigger in more wind) with no elasticity is a recipe for disaster. Do you use dacron double braid, Vectran, Spectra or Dyneema for dock lines?
Good luck thinking outside the box on anchoring. You don't have to be a circumnavigator to have a 50 knot squall (or more) come through an anchorage kicking up some pretty ugly seas.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
To the best of my knowledge, none of the rope you have mentioned has any elasticity. 5 tons versus a 33 pound anchor (bigger in more wind) with no elasticity is a recipe for disaster. Do you use dacron double braid, Vectran, Spectra or Dyneema for dock lines?
Sigh, once again, go read the opening post. I was talking about a sleeve on the outside of the actual rope. A sleeve I would myself put over, making it lose, so the anchor rope within would continue to be able to give as it should. Hell, the thread title even uses the word "sleeve".

Quote:
Good luck thinking outside the box on anchoring. You don't have to be a circumnavigator to have a 50 knot squall (or more) come through an anchorage kicking up some pretty ugly seas.
Sigh, still so set in your ways you're not able to read what is actually being proposed.
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Old 03-29-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

a. I think you will have some problems with the sleeve moving separately from the rode. Normally the sleeve and line have similar elasticity.

b. I think you will need some chain--at least 10 feet--to hold the shank down during setting. I have tried going without chain for small boats and it is a problem. Even more so with high-mod lines, which generally less dense than nylon (float).

Consider using some chain backed by high-mod and using a VERY long snubber (50 feet). Multihull sailors understand your point. With that sort of a performance boat, non-conventional solutions must be investigated. My last boat was an all-Kevlar cat and carrying much chain was out of the question.
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Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

Thanks a bunch for your answer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
a. I think you will have some problems with the sleeve moving separately from the rode. Normally the sleeve and line have similar elasticity.
I was thinking of checking the give in the core line, and then make the sheeve a given length (depending on how long the protective sheeve will need to be - could be 60 feet, for example), and then attach the end of which, 25 percent lower down on the core - in essense "pushing" it down a bit so it doesn't influence the core rope.

Quote:
b. I think you will need some chain--at least 10 feet--to hold the shank down during setting. I have tried going without chain for small boats and it is a problem. Even more so with high-mod lines, which generally less dense than nylon (float).
I was thinking leaded line from Liros to hold down the shank, but now when I think about it, I could test the cut and abrassion resistance by attaching a bigger sleeve around a piece of chain just to test it.

Quote:
Consider using some chain backed by high-mod and using a VERY long snubber (50 feet). Multihull sailors understand your point. With that sort of a performance boat, non-conventional solutions must be investigated. My last boat was an all-Kevlar cat and carrying much chain was out of the question.
The boat will have a (carbon) bowsprit, but in an oldstyle, with bobstay, whisker stays and so on, so I will have to use a bridle or a snubber even with chain. I don't think I want the actual anchor rope to be high mod, although it would save some weight. There's a hole in the stem where the bobstay is fastened (it's actually fastened with dyneema), which ought to be big enough to be able to attach the snubber to. And it's a real low boat (it has no cabin or anything), so I will be able to reach that from lying on the foredeck.

Now that you have put it into my mind, perhaps I should go look at some multihull forums to see what they do. Do you happen to know some (I'm really not well versed in multihulls, having never been on one, except a hobie cat decades ago)?

Last edited by One; 03-30-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

One,

I have been kicking around the idea of an all dyneema anchor line for a while. Sure you loose stretch, but so do all chain rodes as well and I don't see anyone screaming about all chain as a problem, though a snubber would be in order.

The biggest issue as you bring up is abrasion, but frankly the best thing for that would be a larger sleave of 12 strand dyneema added to the solid dyneema core. There are also some abrasion specific covers you could look at made from tightly woven Dacron you could look at as well.


As for a dyneema core over something else. I wouldn't. The same reason plastic tubing makes such a terrible abrasion sleave would apply. Ie the two lines stretch independently of each other creating a huge amount of internal friction.
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

Thanks, but I'm not talking Dyneema for the sleeve, I'm talking Vectran, which has a much higher cut resistence and a somewhat higher abrasion resistance. And it only needs to be "loose" around it, not super tight, and being pushed "down" towards the anchor, it will be at the slimmest (but still big enough) when the line is completely taught (as in no stretch left whatsoever).

I will look into the Dacron sleeves. I don't think I'm ready for a through-and-through Dyneema rope. Hell, just making something grip it at the snubber end will be problematic.

As for plastic making poor abrasion sleeves, I can only say that leather or, indeed, kevlar makes for great abrasion sleeves in general. You need to look no further than motorcycle clothing to see the evidence for that.

I will definately look into every sleeve I can think of, but I think Pdq had it right when he suggested I should look to the multihull crowd for experiences in this regard. I mean, if those guys can make something work, with all that windage, surely a very small 43' (yes, it truly is a fin keeled dinghy, lol) would be able to make use of their experiences.
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Old 03-30-2013
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Re: Vectran sleeve for anchor rode?

It's all about the ability to dissipate heat that makes certain chafe gear perform better than others. There was a Practical $ailor article I recently read that evaluated chafe guards including several home built methods. I don't think Kevlar may be a good choice, while it has certain benefits in motorcycle clothing it isn't designed to go sliding down the road for hours after hours, day after day. I use Kevlar slings in my industry and they are very susceptible to failure if pinched or exposed to a hard edge.

I think I would at least have some chain to help keep my anchor set.
Another point about chafe gear is that it can hide degraded conditions that may result in premature failure of your ground tackle.

I sure would like to hear your opinion of raisng an anchor by hand without a bow roller after you have done it, anyway it's your boat and your back.

PS I understand you are thinking outside the box but I am trying real hard to be civil in this forum, after all it's not advrider. You come across as a person thats a little rude and already knows it all. If you already have the answers why are you asking questions in this forum?


Fair winds and following seas.
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