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  #261  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

Dave,

It's true that there is no set formula for everyone, My advice was targeted at people who have never owned a boat before. It is definitely not targeted at someone like you who has sailed for over 40 years.

I will dare to speculate that the vast majority of newbs who come up here dreaming of crossing the ocean in a $5000 boat - the very type of people that get ridiculed here for their naivete - would do well to follow my advice. While there are exceptions to every rule, the overwhelming majority of these people will never cross oceans, and are far more likely to buy a project boat that never becomes seaworthy before they run out of time, money, and energy. A smaller, simpler boat that gets them some initial experience would be much better for the vast majority of them. It's a much better fate than the predicament that this guy finds himself in.
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  #262  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

Rick, I think you made a lot of valid points, and I've been re-hashing them many times over the past many weeks. It's ironic, though, I've had engine problems on both of my boats - the Honda on the C25 had problems in the water pump (the molded-in base in the lower unit, not the part that could be inexpensively replaced), and we wound up replacing that engine with a new one. This boat has problems in the "powertrain", and we're rebuilding parts of it.

For me, the take-away is that you never REALLY know what's wrong with the boat until you get it home and actually start using it (or, in my case, try to get it home). There may well be significant hidden costs in any boat.

My wife made the point that, for what we'll be investing in this boat, we could have bought a different boat in better condition. But this particular problem may be lurking in ANY boat, and unless you want to pay to have the engine disassembled, or if the PO can show you that it's been replaced recently, you'll never know that the problem exists.
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  #263  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

Having seen Jimgos boat in person I would say that he got a great boat for his family and for years to come. Having the comfort items on board and inboard diesel fits right into his future plans. As he slowly fixes any issues and gets to sail her she will have much new equipment. His boat is large enough for his family of 4 comfortably to stay together on her for days at a time. It also offers great safety in its stability. He purchased a good solid boat. When I looked at it casually its build was of superior quality and she was in good cosmetic shape.

Any 30-40 year old boat will need its propulsion, electrical, water systems updated. That's a given. Once done however they are newer than a 10 year old boat. Putting $5-10,000 into this boat for the price he got it for will give him an updated solid boat to travel on anywhere for a price under $25,000

In addition he got it for such a good price that in spite of him fixing his engine and tranny problems he still is making out well. When you buy a boat of that vintage you should expect to do something more than minor engine work in order to ensure its up to snuff unless it has been done recently.

He has had some bad luck with his first boat getting destroyed and this boat needing repairs instantly to get it in shape, but make no mistake about it he got a good boat for the money including the repairs. I understand his frustration as he wants to get sailing like NOW. But eventually he will.

I will have to disagree with you slightly on the size you should start with.

I say learn on a 22-25 which is trailerable or dockable. Unless you are just doing small lake or bay sailing for the most part I would suggest starting with a 27/28foot boat. The systems on it are more similar to larger boats so you can "learn" how to handle diesel engines, larger sail areas etc.

Also the sailing experience is more positive due to seakindness and size to entice your spouse and kids to join in as a family activity. The ability to have amenities such as a hot shower, burners, room to sleep, enough electricity to run fans, etc is important to some. A slightly larger heavier boat will handle good winds in the 20-25 knot range easily and more comfortably.

I learned on Hobie 16s and raced on friends 25 J's, and my first keelboat was a 28 Islander. I knew I liked sailing and if I bought anything smaller within 5 years I would be selling it so why wait. I also knew I would use my boat a lot so some of the non simplistic systems you speak about were some I wanted as criteria and also to begin learning about them.

You have to buy a boat which fits your needs and also some of your future needs I think.

Which ever way you go I suggest you get the best condition ( good bones so to speak) largest boat you can for the money you can spend ( that means initially and overall)
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  #264  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Jim,
After reading Jim's issues with this boat, and the other issues that some of you here have described with your own boats, I realize how fortunate I am that I have never missed a day of sailing due to mechanical problems (knock on wood). Much of that is luck, but part of that is simply the fact that my little boat has relatively simple systems that are easy to fix. If my outboard motor were to go kaput, I could easily replace it. Of course, an outboard has other deficiencies if you get into serious swells and chop, but you can't beat its simplicity.
I also meant to add my 2 cents on this for what its worth.

Given the then complexity vs. simplicity model of a outboard engine vs. an inboard. I would also opt for the inboard ( and inboard diesel) every time. I would also opt for an inboard gas vs. an outboard gas engine, just because of protection of the engine and its ability to remain powered in heavier seas. I have found in board diesels to be less finicky, run forever, no need to have explosive gas on board, in no danger of being swamped or ruined by a large wave in a following sea.

Our Yanmar 30GMF is 30 years old has 4500 hours and is just broken in. It required an initial major tune-up when I bought the boat and occasional maintenance schedule and of course CLEAN FUEL, but its like the little engine that could. It amazes me sometimes at its steadiness.

Safety is knowing no matter how the weather is the engine will dig in and deliver for you. I don't want to worry about getting the engine swamped or whether the shaft is long enough to handle the swells.
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  #265  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

chef2sail: You would even go for an inboard on a 22' sailboat?

TakeFive's point is that a smaller boat generally has simpler systems and can be cheaper and easier to keep running. If you prioritize sailing over fixing boats that can be a major advantage.

One of those simpler to service and replace system is having an outboard vs an inboard.

The inboard has all sorts of other advantages and is pretty much a requirement as sailboats get longer than 27 or 28 feet. It has advantages on a boat under 25' and with a properly spec'd outboard the engine doesn't come out of the water.

I like my Yanmar too, but it's hard to argue with the point that JimGo would be out sailing right now if his new boat had come with an outboard. For a new sailor (first boat) JimGo's experience could be a major setback and get them away from sailing forever.

I tend to agree with TakeFive. I'm happy that I moved up to a more complicated boat with many more systems (beyond the inboard it also has heat, hot water, pressurized water, shore power, and networked electronics) than my Catalina 25, but I'm also happy that my introduction to sailing was a simpler boat with less systems to worry about.
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  #266  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

My first sailboat was a Hunter 23 I made it a nice boat, but from the get go I knew I wanted larger; 30-35 ft. The money spent on the smaller boat would have been better served in the budget for a larger boat at the time. BUT, I listened to everyone saying "start small" I sold the H23 in 11 months for about what I bought it for plus the roller furling and head sail I added.

Many of us think boats as an investment but they are like cars. Very very FEW every appreciate in value. We see people making money flipping houses and cars. I don't see flipping as a money make for boat restorations.

"Make it better for one's own needs and use" makes allot of sense and that's just what I do with my floating money pit. She always brings me home
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Last edited by deniseO30; 06-19-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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  #267  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

I got a call from the insurance adjuster; she said that she's not the final decision-maker, but in her informal opinion, there may not be enough here for Progressive to pay for the repairs. So, I sent the marina an E-mail authorizing them to continue with the repairs as we had discussed. I doubt it will be done this week (they still need to order the transmission, damping plate, engine mounts, and heat exchanger), but things are FINALLY going to start moving forward. Hopefully everything will bolt back together easily and the engine will run like a champ.
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  #268  
Old 06-19-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex W View Post
chef2sail: You would even go for an inboard on a 22' sailboat?

TakeFive's point is that a smaller boat generally has simpler systems and can be cheaper and easier to keep running. If you prioritize sailing over fixing boats that can be a major advantage.

One of those simpler to service and replace system is having an outboard vs an inboard.

The inboard has all sorts of other advantages and is pretty much a requirement as sailboats get longer than 27 or 28 feet. It has advantages on a boat under 25' and with a properly spec'd outboard the engine doesn't come out of the water.

I like my Yanmar too, but it's hard to argue with the point that JimGo would be out sailing right now if his new boat had come with an outboard. For a new sailor (first boat) JimGo's experience could be a major setback and get them away from sailing forever.

I tend to agree with TakeFive. I'm happy that I moved up to a more complicated boat with many more systems (beyond the inboard it also has heat, hot water, pressurized water, shore power, and networked electronics) than my Catalina 25, but I'm also happy that my introduction to sailing was a simpler boat with less systems to worry about.
No not an inboard on a 22 ft boat. Some 25s though come with inboards.
I am not against outboards, just given a choice I would prefer an inboard.
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  #269  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

"the engine will run like a champ". yup.. it runs and runs and runs Jim But it has a "sweet spot" on the RPMs I don't have a tach but I guess around 2500. At Low RPM those 2 cylinders tends to rock allot. Other then that It's a champ!
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  #270  
Old 06-20-2013
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Re: Apparently I'm not meant to have a boat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex W View Post
I like my Yanmar too, but it's hard to argue with the point that JimGo would be out sailing right now if his new boat had come with an outboard.
I'm not so sure I agree with that. An outboard would be less costly to replace, that's for sure, but if we treat the outboard like I'm treating this inboard (i.e., that I'm not going to do the repair), and assuming I was looking to have it repaired instead of replaced, I think I'd be in basically the same situation - I'd be waiting for the repairs. Now, with an outboard I MAY have been able to take it off the boat and carry it to a shop that wasn't as busy, but my boat is 10,000 lbs. If I recall correctly, a "preferred" HP for that weight is something like 15-20HP. A long-shaft 15HP Tohatsu with remote is 135lbs, and the 20 is about the same weight. I'm not in bad shape and am about average strength, but that's too much for me to muscle myself. My 92lb XLS 9.8 was tough to handle on my own; I can't imagine adding another 40 lbs.

A new outboard would cost about half what the repair costs will be for the inboard, so if we were truly talking dollars, then I am more inclined to agree with you. But even then, I'd likely still need the marina to help do the install unless I could coerce some friends or sailnetters to come lend a hand.

I do agree, though, that starting with a smaller boat makes sense, and I agree with Rick that, had this happened last year when we first bought the boat, we'd probably be looking at how to get rid of the albatross as quickly as possible and wouldn't be back to boating for a long time (if ever).

My biggest gripe, other than the cost!, is with how long this has taken. Had I known 2 months ago that I'd be waiting this long, I might actually have tried to do some of the repairs myself, but that may have hurt me in any discussions with the insurance company.
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