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  #21  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Thanks for the pictures and explanation, PCP. That makes more sense.
Yes, I can see how one could misjudge the difficulty of getting into the harbor under those conditions.
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  #22  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Damned shame.

Good to see you back aboard, Smack!!!!
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Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
It's never good to hear about yachts being lost whilst running bars and even worse when people die because of it.

Paulo, what I don't understand is, if the boat was in the breaking zone and heading for the beach, why on earth did two (not one - but two!) rescue boats head out in 5 metre breakers to get them? Apart from "hero" status, what were they hoping to achieve?? Surely all the rescuers needed to do was to wait on the beach and tell the people on board to don lifejackets??

Can you explain?



I can understand how someone might try to enter a bar in bad weather - and I'm sure you can too. It isn't always that easy to see the breakers from the ocean - and people don't like spending the night at sea, even in a modern plastic boat, when all their friends are telling them they should be in harbour for dinner and drinks at the Yacht Club... Staying out at sea is for old wooden boats and salt-encrusted sailors.
Why did rescuers head out in those conditions? Because that's what they do; they rescue people. I doubt that trying to be a 'hero' ever crossed their minds. My hat is off to them....

You're also glossing over the fact that apparently three of the five people from the boat were in the water, probably from the initial capsize. So telling everyone to don PDF's and stay on board would have been like closing the barn door after the horses were out.

Last edited by troy2000; 04-11-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000 View Post
Why did rescuers head out in those conditions? Because that's what they do; they rescue people. I doubt that trying to be a 'hero' ever crossed their minds. My hat is off to them....

You're also glossing over the fact that apparently three of the five people from the boat were in the water, probably from the initial capsize. So telling everyone to don PDF's and stay on board would have been like closing the barn door after the horses were out.
We have dangerous bars here: the main one into our harbour isn't officially named "The Rip" for nothing - heck, we even have dangerous mooring areas (below is a picture of the one at Mornington in a storm) - so I'm not glossing over anything:



Whilst it's tragic that the yacht capsized and that some of the crew drowned, what I don't understand is the rescuers sending two boats out into conditions where one of their own people died to save people off a yacht that crossed a closed bar against the advice of the same authorities... Especially if the yacht is headed toward a sandy beach (not rocks) where the yacht is in no danger of breaking up and immediate help is at hand.

If that happened over here, there would be a major coronial inquest and people in authority would be reprimanded for mis-managing the situation! I can only assume (from the other side of the world and based solely on Paulo's posts) that the rescue authorities mis-judged how bad the conditions were.

AIUI, in serious wave conditions it is not a good idea to send out more than one rescue boat since (a) there is a high risk of collision between rescue boats whilst at the scene and (b) you are putting more lives at risk.

Hopefully, in time, we will be told what really happened out there...
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Last edited by Classic30; 04-11-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #25  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
...

Whilst it's tragic that the yacht capsized and that some of the crew drowned, what I don't understand is the rescuers sending two boats out into conditions where one of their own people died to save people off a yacht that crossed a closed bar against the advice of the same authorities... Especially if the yacht is headed toward a sandy beach (not rocks) where the yacht is in no danger of breaking up and immediate help is at hand.

If that happened over here, there would be a major coronial inquest and people in authority would be reprimanded for mis-managing the situation! I can only assume (from the other side of the world and based solely on Paulo's posts) that the rescue authorities mis-judged how bad the conditions were.

AIUI, in serious wave conditions it is not a good idea to send out more than one rescue boat since (a) there is a high risk of collision between rescue boats whilst at the scene and (b) you are putting more lives at risk.

Hopefully, in time, we will be told what really happened out there...
Hartley, you are not making much sense. We know what happened there. there is witnesses and the report of the rescuers. On that movie a witness described the accident.

Again, the accident was not near the beach but on the river bar that is far away. The boat did not cross the bar. It was capsized at the bar. There were people on the water trying to survive. They sent what they had available. Two boats can retrieve more quickly several persons from the water and from the sailing boat than one alone. That comment regarding to be dangerous to send two boats because they can collide makes no sense.

One was a big and powerful semi-rigid (the one that capsized) the other a coastal lifeboat also a powerful relatively small boat, both easy to steer. For your information the boats did not collided. When one was retrieving the people on the water (the lifeboat) the semi-rigid was trying to rescue the ones that were in the sailingboat. That was the one that capsized when trying to get alongside to the sailboat.

I don't understand your comment saying that it would be better to let let the sailors on the boat and wait for the boat be washed ashore, several hundreds of meters away just because it was a sand beach. Even retrieving them sooner some were already in really bad shape needing to be hospitalized (two with multiple fractures are in a grave condition). You don't know if the boat would capsize again on the breakers and what would have happened to the ones aboard.

I don't understand also the comment regarding authorities misjudging how bad the conditions were. The bar was closed, they new the conditions were bad that it would be a risky operation...so what? There were lives at risk, should they don't try to save them because it was dangerous? Only the thought is insulting. Around here we don't act that way. When there are lives at risk they try to save them disregarding their own safety. Your comments are even more unfortunate since one of the rescuers died trying to save the lives of the crew.

"people in authority would be reprimanded for mis-managing the situation!"

Really?


on this video we can see better the sea conditions:

http://videos.sapo.pt/yN6cO5ePIdC5YIGJF9n9

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-11-2013 at 10:22 PM.
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  #26  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hartley, you are not making much sense. We know what happened there. there is witnesses and the report of the rescuers. On that movie a witness described the accident.
Paulo, I didn't see the movie and do not speak Portugese - thank you for filling in the details. I had the impression from reading the posts here that the accident happened during the crossing of a closed bar to get into harbour before dark. If the boat was in trouble before they crossed the bar a long way from the harbour entrance, I can understand why the rescuers took the action they did. I misunderstood what happened... my bad.

Thank you for answering my original question about why they sent two boats. I certainly have never intended to imply the rescuers did anything wrong in this case, I am simply trying to understand why one of the rescuers died. As I said, if something like that happened over here there would be a major enquiry into the management of the incident to understand what went wrong. Perhaps the RIB was not a suitable rescue vessel for the conditions?!? I do not know..

I assume the sea conditions were a lot worse at the time of the accident because they do not seem dangerous to me - I have seen worse. If you never get conditions that are considered too dangerous to life to send rescue teams as soon as they are called you are very fortunate indeed.
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Last edited by Classic30; 04-11-2013 at 11:02 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-12-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Yes, that rib was not the most appropriated but that was what they had available.

Portugal is in a deep of very difficult economic problems that are being addressed but that involve huge cuts to everybody, mostly in what regards state costs. With those costs the life guard service has not money to be run as before and they only pay their workers from 9h till 17.30h. They do what they have to do at any our without being paid. The cuts also involved the impossibility to assure what they consider a proper service so the navy is helping with the equipment they have and they don't have adequate equipment for rescue.

That RIB, the one that capsized was a navy boat with sailors not specifically trained for rescue. They didn't have even life saving suits. If they had then probably that sailor would not be dead. They all come to help and have done the best they could for some sailors that were doing the wrong thing and that could be safe sailing offshore.

This starts to be a problem, I mean sailors doing things without knowing how to them and then ask for help:

Yesterday the life boat from Peniche went out to respond to a mayday. The time as disagreeable but not threatening and today is a nice day. The saillboat in question had 9/10m and had a engine problem. I saw photos of the boat and its sails were intact and apparently without any problem. The conditions permitted the life saving boat to tow them to Port. Why the hell did they not sail to Port? Probably another ones that did not want to pass a disagreeable night at sea

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-12-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-12-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisscross View Post
If the boat was not sinking, would it not have been better for them to stay on the boat, inside the cabin, waiting for it to settle down on the bar?
Hmm not seen the conditions when you get breaking waves on a bar then I guess.

Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Ot9A-8Qm0

then you decide if you think staying inside a cabin would be a viable option.

BTW I have cruised that coast and been in Figueira da Foz when they closed the entrance. It looks pretty serious from the land side but little of the violence is visible from the sea.
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Old 04-12-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

This is from Time Badit on Sailblogs

Moving North | Time Bandit

He was just behind the German boat.

Moving North
12/04/2013, Baiona

Peniche to ????

We woke in Peniche to the deep bass Boooom of the swell crashing onto the harbour walls. Overnight, the swell had grown larger and was perhaps 3-4 metres high. Long rollers, seemingly inocuous until the reach the shallow water where they build into fearsome breakers.

The original plan was to depart Peniche bright and early heading for Figueira da Foz.

Our German neighbours who have been following us up the coast for a few days beat us to it leaving ahead of us which was good as we could see the harbour exit was OK.

Once again we had a decent sail with the wind at 15 ish right behind us. Time Bandit sails well dead downwind, goosewinged and we made good time.

However, all through the day I had been thinking about the ever increasing swell and how it would affect the entry to Figuiera. The dominant wind on the Portuguese coast is northerly. Consequently, the Atlantic coast marinas and harbours in Portugal are open to the west and south. When there's a big swell, the harbours become "no-go" zones. Three years ago a British yacht was rolled in the surf trying to enter when conditions weren't right. Two died so our attention was held for our entry.

As we approached the harbour, the comers were building in height as they rushed shorewards, trailing a head of spume as the hit shallower water.

The German boat headed on in but we were a bit doubtful. In fact, very doubtful. The cones saying whether the entry was safe or not weren't visible as we made our approach so we called the harbour master who said "Harbour closed. Too dangerous".

Our concerns confirmed, we turned around and headed out for a night at sea.

Five minutes later as I glanced back I saw a parachute flare descending in the harbour area. There was no traffic on the radio so we called in a Mayday, somewhat concerned it was the German boat in trouble. We haven't seen or heard anything so hope they're ok. Sharpens the mind though.
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  #30  
Old 04-13-2013
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Re: Bad yacht accident: two dead (one rescuer)

A little more on the dead sailor taken from a local newspaper.

His monthly wage was £800 and his widow gets a pension of £267 a month.
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