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  #91  
Old 04-24-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
I’ve got a busy day so only had a chance to “skim” the messages, but I’ll try to add context to my yesterday’s message. I used the C34 as a “base boat” as I am quite familiar with it being a past national champion in that boat. I am also potentially in the market for a 40 foot boat to cruise Mexico and beyond in the next couple of years. My dilemma is it worth it to me to double/treble/quadruple my current boat cost as I enter into retirement? My C34 is a pretty capable little boat – It qualifies for the PacCup, TransPac, SHTP, and Bermuda 1-2 races so it has the “chops” IMHO for what I want to do. The question is how much comfort and performance would I get by buying a 40 footer and does it make economic sense for me. I pulled the dimensional numbers off of various sources on the internet and I am a little suspicious of several of them. ...

Paulo, I was looking at the division standings for the ARC. What division should I be looking in to find the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus ?

Is there a way I can post tabular data on Sail Net? I’d like to post my expanding database.
I had a bit of the same problem as you and in fact I got an interest in understanding sailboat design on account of that. I had a 2002 Bavaria 36

http://sailingbreezes.com/sailing_br.../bavaria36.htm

and I had the same doubts as you but finally I decided that I wanted a more seaworthy and fast boat and one with a better upwind performance at least with the same storage space. It was not easy, the Bavaria 36 was a good boat and a fast one.

It is faster than an Oceanis 39 and probably faster than a Catalina 400 (there are 3 different Bavara 36 models, this one was the fastest of all).

After trying many boats I decided that what I wanted was a 38 to 40ft performance cruiser and ended up with a 41ft boat with those characteristics. I ended up with a 41ft because I had to choose one on the used market and that was the better pick. If new I would have bought a 38ft performance cruiser and I am sure I would be very satisfied with that boat (it had the interior space, the storage I needed, the light wind ability, the point ability and a nice cruising interior).

Regarding the Bavaria 36 I would say that this one is a 1.5K faster boat but more than that it is a boat that I can sail with less wind and as I am retired and I am not in a hurry to go anywhere that means that I normally turn the engine half an hour leaving anchorage and half an hour entering a new anchorage (just for charging batteries) and in meantime I sail . Believe it or not I go out when there are at least 2K wind making about 2k speed, but I sail all the time. This is also a boat able to make a much better VMG against the wind. not only the boat is faster as it can close much more on the wind.

Me and my wife are very satisfied, but that is just me and my wife.

I guess you have to decide if the storage space of your present boat is enough. That was the starting point of my wife. I wanted a better sailing boat she did not want one with a less nice interior or with less storage and if possible with more.

Then you have to decide what is the sailing performance you want: Not only bigger boats are faster but regarding your boat, if performance boats, they can sail with a lot less wind.

Then you should start to try sailboats centering your decision point in what storage and performance you want and need on a sailboat. I suggest you to start by classes of boats like size and main market versus performance cruiser (the last ones have to be slightly bigger to have the same interior space of the first).

Since you say that you enjoy sailing and that actually now very well to sail and enjoy fine tuning ( past national champion) I suggest that you try performance boats. They are not all the same and since you want a voyage boat I suggest you look to boat seaworthiness also, specially in what regards stability. And then of course you have your wife's demands (if it is the case).

Not easy, but it can be a lot of fun. I sold my boat and I was two years trying new boats and charting others till I refined my choice.

I hope it helps.

Regarding the ARC:

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...20Division.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...%20Overall.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...%20Results.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...by%20Class.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content...20Division.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content..._Divisions.pdf

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-24-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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  #92  
Old 04-24-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

yup a 46. the 52 is a palace and well beyond my needs or means.
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  #93  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
....
Not going to pick up the gauntlet anymore Paulo. We just see things differently. Guess it comes with the temperance of age.
.....
I guess that if at 60 (well some months to go) I am not well tempered I will never be

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  #94  
Old 04-24-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I think some people try to draw a hard line between "racer" and "cruiser". I say, for sake of argument, that no such line can exist. I have succesfully raced a Baba 35 pilot house version. I have successfully cruised a 70' ULDB. I think it all boils down to personal sailing style and sailing skills. It drives me nuts to sail a boat with design flaws that performs poorly. I want performance first then I'll see what I can do to get the comfort and safety I need. But that's my personal style. If doing 4.5 knots to weather with the AWA at 40 degrees makes you happy then go for it. I really don't like the attitude, "I'll tell you how to have fun damn it!"

It wasn't so very long ago that the Valiant 40 was considered too radical to be a serious offshore cruising boat.

I can remember John Neale storming into my office and berating me for being so stupid as to design an offshore boat without a full keel. Now John sails a H-R with a spade rudder.


A full keel Baba 40 AIRLOOM won it's class last week in Seattle's Blakely Rock Race.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

agree with Bob. Sail a well designed boat well- have too much fun
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Bob, It seems you have to wait for some more years to get the "temperance of age"

As you know Magnus Olsson died recently at the age of 64. That one never reached the age of temperance and lived a full life. His constant big smile while steering is all about what sailing is: Joy.



Certainly he had cruised but I refuse to believe that he had done so in a boring boat. I just can't imagine that.

Sailing and cruising are separated things, cruising can be made through sailing but different people value differently sailing and cruising. That is the reason that different sailors have different "ideal" cruising boats.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo:
I'm 66 years old. I'm getting wiser.

For you guys sailing is a hobby. For me it's my business and has been since I ws 21 years old. My hobby is hi-end stereo gear, Hi-Fi gear. I'm an audiophile or as we audiophiles say, I'm an "audiofool". I have spent $3,500 on speaker wires, twice. If I told you how much the cartridge (needle) on my turntable cost you would not believe me. In my hobby we are as passionate about the elements as you guys are about sailing. We rage horrible word wars over which is better,tubes or solid state. We call each other vile names. In the end it all comes down to personal preference, both can be very good, I own both, tubes in the office and ss in the living room. But we still like to attack each other and call each other idiots if someone disagrees. But it's best to keep in mind we all love hi-fi/ sailing and we all enjoy it in our own personal way.

Yeah, I read about Magnus dieing. I'm not keen on death. Sad people are left in the wake. They say time heals all. I say BS.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Bob- as one who at one time has bought more gold bits( hope they don't find super cooled wires or some unobtainable is better) for the sound system then my wife and reconstructed a room to anchor the speakers I feel your pain. Fortunately, with age has come frequency loss but the passion to sail started in my teens and I can't shake it. Guess I'm intemperate too. Don't remember calling Paulo nasty names. Guess you hang in tougher circles.
On the business side- really like the version you did of the Outbound 46. Makes a lot of sense.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
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...

Yeah, I read about Magnus dieing. I'm not keen on death. Sad people are left in the wake. They say time heals all. I say BS.
I was not talking about his dead I was celebrating his life. I believe he will not die in the heart of those that appreciated his live and I have.

In what regards Hi fi I have advance acustics and monitor audio, that's what my money can afford but I am a fan.

I don't believe that you besides having a job as boat designer are not passionate about your work. I hope you are.

I am not attacking anynobody. I don't think that there is a right way to cruise or a right cruiser boat. Different people has different tastes, life styles and sailing pleasures.

Each Sailor if he cruises and sails enough boats will discover his perfect cruising boat (even if he does not have money to have it) and that perfect cruising boat will be different according to the sailing and life profile of the cruiser.

That is what I have been saying but not what others have been saying and I am not attacking them. I consider them friends. Just a difference of opinion regarding the possibility of a performance cruiser (that Brian calls racer) to be the perfect cruising boat for some...not for all.

Have you seen the title of this thread....that's about that, the possibility or impossibility of that reality.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-24-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I guess if the “grownups” like the esteemed Mr. Perry have now shown up does this mean us kids have to go home or can we still play some more? Bob, now that you are here, can you “check my math”? I have a couple of formulas that are obviously broken – can you tell me where they are incorrectly written?

MOMENT OF INERTIA (I) = Displacement^1.744/35.5

ROLL PERIOD (T) = 2*PI*(Inertia/(82.43*lwl*(.82*beam)^3))^.5

STABILITY INDEX = T / (beam*.3048)

Yes, boat selection is extremely personal and I am still enthralled with my C34 but I am at a crossroads as I look to retirement and Mexico cruising. Do I make a jump to a bigger platform? If so, do I buy something that the cool kids are all sailing? If I double my expense in the boat, will I double my pleasure? My C34 gives me a whole lot of pleasure right now and it is never boring. I have done a whole lot of racing an on some pretty fast designs so I have a pretty good idea of what is on the far end of the spectrum, it’s the stuff in the middle like the Benies, Jeannies, and yes, the fatty cattys that seem to be too closely grouped together and hence, my corundum.

Not to be a total brown noser Bob, but I raced your Nordic 44 design to a second place in the ’08 Pac Cup. Beating the third place boat by almost 24 hours (and losing first by a “mere” three hours.) It was a fun ride. Based on the experience, tried to talk the Mrs. into the Nordic 40 version but she didn't like the small cockpit and forward head. As they say, different horses for different courses.
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