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  #101  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

George:
I don't check math. I design boats. Somebody here with a textbook can check your math.

Glad you enjoyed the Nordic 44. I think that's one of my really good designs. The cockpit for the 44 became the cockpit for the Nordic 40. We used the same tooling. That's why the fanny on the 40 is so broad. Not sure why your wife didn't like it. But doesn't matter she was right anyway. Wives are like that. The 44 is the far better boat.

Best of luck with your boat search.
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  #102  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
... It was a fun ride. Based on the experience, tried to talk the Mrs. into the Nordic 40 version but she didn't like the small cockpit and forward head. As they say, different horses for different courses.
Then you have a wife...and has it is expected it is an important part of the equation in what regards to chose a cruising boat and it is only far to be that way.

I remember some time ago on the interesting sailboat thread someone that wanted a boat for circumnavigating. His personal choice, if the wife was not coming along was something fast, adapted to solo sailing. If I am remembering correctly he was thinking in something like an Elan 350. We ended up convincing his wife (good for them) and the compromise was a fast big voyage catamaran with a nice interior and lots of interior space

Regards

Paulo
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  #103  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I get wanting to cruise in something fast. Who doesn't.

The responses to the question here(I have followed the whole thread) seem to be a suggestion that it is all just about 'style' - That some people cruise with more stuff and some with less.

While this is true, it is a simplification. What I don't get is that if your 'cruising' (Your boat is your home not a building and you move it around a fair bit) there is a level of tankage/provisions/spares you just have to have.

Even planing 10+ kts minimalists have to eat and drink, presumably their boats also sometimes require maintenance, and occasionally they like to have fun.

Boats such as Firsts( just an example CD mentioned, not picking on it) would get pretty weighed down/squishy by the time you have met what i believe would be the average/accepted level of tankage/provisioning/spares/safeties IMHO.

Our boat doesn't have a much in the way of toys or mod cons. We are a moderate diplacement 35ft cruising sloop, No Generator, no AC, no watermaker, No microwave(Ok, we are getting one though, purism be damned those things are miracles on passage).

We DO carry 180 Litres of diesel( about 50 Gallons?) and additional Jerrys. Triple that for water. We do wear clothes and eat food. We have a medical kit that takes up an entire locker, cruising guides that fill another, and don't get me started on charts and toilet paper. Occasionally I need to fix stuff so there are tools, and when I am not I have been known to read a book or two. We at times probably nearly equal our water capacity in wine/beer/rum and scotch.

When you are living and voyaging fulltime even simple needs such as ours are enough to fill most crevices in a good cruising boat. I question in a boat with less storage/tankage and light displacement how you do satisfactorily get around these simple facts.

Of course yes there a extremes, some guy probably has sailed around the world on a racing machine with 5 gallons of diesel, a pair of shorts and 2 cans of baked beans.
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Last edited by chall03; 04-25-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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  #104  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

call03 - couldn't of said it better. Trick is to have a boat that can carry the load, be comfortable and still be reasonably fast. Also having a boat that can be repaired and serviced easily just about anywhere is another issue not given enough importance by some when thinking about this initially.
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  #105  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

What i don't understand is, why does everyone seem to accept the assumption that a more performance oriented boat cannot be loaded up with the same amount of gear and provisions as slower, porkier cruising boats. Performance cruisers aren't kept light because their hull form can't handle the load, they are kept light because lighter is faster. There is no reason you couldn't. Fit out a J120 for serious cruising, and it will still sail better than a loaded down Catalina. At least on the performance boats you aren't wasting cargo capacity on heavy furniture and un neccessary woodwork. I have sailed on a J160 that has all of the extra tankage, generator, and even a dive compressor, and is still blazing fast, and plenty comfortable.
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  #106  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Achock:
I have explained this ad nauseum here. But there are still some skeptics. And perhaps they have a valid point. Given the fact that the waterplane area for two 40'er, one a cruiser and one a racer, will be similar, their two pounds per inch immersion factors will be very similar. So, let's say each boat will sink an inch for every 1300 lbs. of gear loaded. Of course the more the boat sinks the more the waterplane increases and the plbs. per inch immers will increase. We all know this, with the exception of the crew of the MERRY LUDDITE.

However, and this is where the slekptis have a point: If your racy 40'er weighs 14,000 lbs and your cruiser buddies 40'er weighs 24,000 lbs. You will have 218.75 cu. ft. of volume below the DWL to stow gear, including tankage while tyou heavier cruiser buddy will have 375 cu. ft. of volume below the DWL. Not quite twice as much volume but colse enough.

What does this mean? It means that you will have a hard time finding places on your race boat to stow all the gear.You heavier buddy has that generoud bilge area where he can stash canned good, wine, gear and spares. With you skinny bilged race boat about the only think you can stow below the sole is pasta, spaghetti, on its side.

Displ means volume and in this example I am only talking about volume bekow the DWL. It makes sense that the cruiser may have fuller ends and maybe more freeboard too so the above the DWL volume is also greater.

The lighter boat will in almost all cases still sail better. But at night, snug in that anchorage when you go to bed on your racer you may be resting your head on a can of beans or a jerry jug full of water.
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  #107  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

While that is true in narrow hull racers in performance cruisers with the hull based on open solo racers the huge transoms allows a big storage space. The hulls have normally one cabin on one side and an identical space on the other side has a storage space. That space is a very big one. That is one of the reasons that make them among fast performance boats popular voyage boats for the ones that like to voyage fast.

Other important reason for that choice is the easiness of sailing (regarding other performance cruisers) and the fact that those boats and hulls were designed taking in consideration the possibility of the boats to be sailed on autopilot, even at two figure speeds downwind.
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  #108  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I understand that you have to have the actual physical space to put your stuff, and if your kind of cruising requires you to carry enough canned food and water to be at sea for months, then you should choose your boat accordingly. In many cases I suspect that people fill up whatever size boat they have with stuff! Just like when I had a condo, and moved into a townhouse, I couldn't believe how much space I had for my stuff. A few years later, the townhouse was full. Then came the house! Tons of space! Now, there is no room in the 2 car garage because of all the stuff! I suspect the same principle applies to boats!

Of course if you are taking all your worldly possessions to sea with you, a big heavy tub might be exactly what you need! That certainly isn't what I would want.
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  #109  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo:
You are being silly. You are introducing radical hull shapes into the discussion. If I can do that I can prove anything. We are not talking about Volvo 60's or Open 40's here.

Sure they are wide. But they are thin. There is little usable volume there. You sure as hell cannot load up the stern with tankage or anything of any weight. You must know that. On a heavy boat you can fit a 100 gallon fuel tank down in the bilge over the keel, keep the wreight amidships and lower the VCG while you are at it.

Try that in the stern of you light and wide race type boat. Ridiculous!

Or maybe, you just want to argue. If you do then I'm going to watch hockey.
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Last edited by bobperry; 04-25-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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  #110  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
While that is true in narrow hull racers in performance cruisers with the hull based on open solo racers the huge transoms allows a big storage space. The hulls have normally one cabin on one side and an identical space on the other side has a storage space. That space is a very big one. That is one of the reasons that make them among fast performance boats popular voyage boats for the ones that like to voyage fast.

Other important reason for that choice is the easiness of sailing (regarding other performance cruisers) and the fact that those boats and hulls were designed taking in consideration the possibility of the boats to be sailed on autopilot, even at two figure speeds downwind.
I actually don't disagree with you on this in regards to these modern 'performance cruisers'. They seem to be an evolution in design, albeit an acquired taste. There is certainly though a well funded, more performance orientated breed of cruiser that loves these kind of boats.

I do personally like the Marten 49.

It's darn pretty, fast and there is enough storage/tankage for my needs. It is academic however, they are well beyond my means.

What was in my means when boat shopping were boats such as First 36.7's, and similar style aussie cruiser/racers. I used to race J 24's. My last boat was a IOR 1/4 Tonner and my wife is actually more of a hardcore racing sailor than me. When boat shopping we initially liked the idea of something like a First, but in the end we couldn't see making it work for our intended cruising use. We boat a slower moderate displacement cruising boat.
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Last edited by chall03; 04-25-2013 at 09:33 PM.
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