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  #111  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Bob, the one great thing we all gloss over is also the great determining factor and that is WHAT DOES THE MRS. WANT? My bride is the one who likes host parties and such for the other couples in the anchorage so even in our little C34, being able to sit six in the cockpit for cocktails and four comfortably for dinner is a must. I know, it’s a cross I have to bear, but I do get a lot of sailing out of it. Interesting observation about displacement and volume. Is it safe to assume for every 1,000 of displacement there is 15.6 CF of potential storage? I know that it can’t be an exact number, but it is an interesting way making a comparison between boats. Another thing that keeps me away from the go-fast boats is I discovered much to my chagrin when we were beating off of Cabo Falso in thirty knots of breeze, is my wife absolutely detests running backs! Which opens up a whole another can of worms concerning the desirability of a complicated rig on a cruising boat.
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  #112  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
You are being silly. You are introducing radical hull shapes into the discussion. If I can do that I can prove anything. We are not talking about Volvo 60's or Open 40's here.

Sure they are wide. But they are thin. There is little usable volume there. You sure as hell can load up the stern with tankage or anything of any weight. You must know that.

Or do you just want to argue. If you do then I'm going to watch hockey.
Are you sure I am the silly one?

One of the boats that has been sold on the last year in bigger numbers as a fast ocean voyage sailboat is the Pogo 12.50. They have a waiting list of more than a year.


Pogo 12.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.



This is a pure performance ocean cruiser, not adapted to racing. Pogo has a 40class racer with the same hull, bigger rig, water ballasts and different and deeper draft bulbed keel).

The Pogo 12.50 has a swing keel that allows it a very small draft. There is a member of this forum with one and another waiting for another. This last one will be a liveaboard (if I understand correctly is intentions.

It is a very recent boat but one of them had made already the ARC being, off course, one of the fastest if not the fastest 40ft cruising boat and one of the first to arrive.

The smaller boat, the Pogo 10.50, an identical but smaller boat, a very popular boat and also extensively used as a Voyage boat. It has also made the ARC and there are many voyaging extensivelly. Both boats are designed by Jean Marie Finot that has one Pogo 10.50 has personal boat to cruise with his wife. I think Finot is about 70 years old.

Both boats are also used as charter boats for the ones that want to cruise on the fast lane:

fastsailing.gr - Generously comfortable - The yachts , Generously comfortable

Off course, Pogo is only the ocean cruiser that is more close to a 40class racer, there are other very famous voyage boats based on the hull shape of solo open boats. we have the RM 1260 by Marc Lombard that won this year the European Family cruiser award and that is the successor of the 1200, a very successful voyage boat with a large number of boats voyaging around the world:



And the originally designed by Finot and now redesigned by Marc Lombard Cigales 14 and 16, considered by many the best fast voyage boat.



Among others off course,

Silly? I don't think so

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-25-2013 at 09:16 PM.
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  #113  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
if your kind of cruising requires you to carry enough canned food and water to be at sea for months, then you should choose your boat accordingly.
Interestingly our cruising doesn't require us to be at sea for months, yet we find it is necessary to still have a somewhat well stocked boat. Shops are not handy when cruising.(At least where we cruise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
Of course if you are taking all your worldly possessions to sea with you, a big heavy tub might be exactly what you need! That certainly isn't what I would want.
We also don't have a lot of worldy possessions on the boat, honestly just simple normal stuff and what an average sailor, doing average cruising would deem essential on boat.

This stuff adds up more than you would think...
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Last edited by chall03; 04-25-2013 at 09:24 PM. Reason: can't type
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  #114  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Yeah Paulo:
I do this for a living. I've done it for a living for the last 46 years. I have not interest in argument for argument sake. I have designed every kind of boat from the Baba 30 to the Flying Tiger 30. I know boats. I have done 70ULDB's and 60' ULDB cruising boats. I'll wait for the list of your designs. I have about 7,000 boats on the water that I have designed.

For long range, offshore cruising displacement has it's benefits. If you want to argue that then go ahead but argue to the rest of your audience because I know you are being less than intelligent. I'd say "stupid". Cruisers want tankage, engine space, stowage space, room for personal effects and more tankage. You need displ to give this. This is not a theory. This is not a philosophy. This is reality.

Lets see,,,,,You want me to load extra tankage, say 150 gallons, into the stern of a light and wide racing type hull form? It will not work. It will trim boat by the stern dramatically and hurt performance. Take any designer of that type of boat and suggest he add a 150 gallon tank aft and he'll laugh at you Paulo. Then suggest 200 gallons and the designer will laugh so hard he'll throw up. The suggest a dinghy in davits, a BBQ, a Solar panel array, an outboard. The poor designer of the light boat will die laughing. R.I.P. While he's laying there dead you can suggest a stern anchoring set up with 300' of nylon on a spool mounted on your stern pulpit. I think the body will roll over.

You have this attitude that all good boats have to be your idea of a good boat.
That's total BS. We all have our own way of approaching yachting. There is no reason it has to be reduced to argument or "my way or the highway". I love boats. I love all kinds of boats. I love light boats and I like heavy boats. I just love boats and I appreciate them for what they are as individuals. I am a good enough sailor to get the most out of any boat.

Do it your way and enjoy.
Guys like Wolf can do it their way and enjoy.
Who enjoys more?
I don't give a rat's ass.
Fun is fun.
Happy is happy.
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Last edited by bobperry; 04-25-2013 at 09:42 PM.
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  #115  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Thank you Bob.
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  #116  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

One of fastest offshore, cruising boats I have come across, and liked is the Saga 43.

This particular one was for sale and the owner had claimed it regularly had done 200nm 24 hour runs. It had good tankage/storage ( well good enough, yes there are boats with more). If I didn't already own a boat I like, and was thinking of heading across oceans soon I would of seriously of come close to buying said boat.

Now what was the name of that guy who designed it??
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  #117  
Old 04-25-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I think the designer's name is Russel Upsomegrub.
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  #118  
Old 04-26-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
A full keel Baba 40 AIRLOOM won it's class last week in Seattle's Blakely Rock Race.
I've sailed against that boat more times than I can count, and have usually been beaten by her. She's wicked competitive, even with her dacron sails. I love watching her beat the lightweight money-boats.

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  #119  
Old 04-26-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yeah Paulo:
I do this for a living. I've done it for a living for the last 46 years. I have not interest in argument for argument sake. I have designed every kind of boat from the Baba 30 to the Flying Tiger 30. I know boats. I have done 70ULDB's and 60' ULDB cruising boats. I'll wait for the list of your designs. I have about 7,000 boats on the water that I have designed.
What has that to do?... I mean the boats I have designed. It was not me that have designed those voyage boats. You should ask how many boats Jean Marie Finot or Marc Lombard have designed and the answer would be probably a lot more than you, specially on the last years were they are very successful designers and looked by major boat builders for designing production boats.

That is a stupid argument anyway. They could have designed the boats and they could have not had any success like that very narrow cruiser boat that you designed some years back that could fit in a container.

The success of a design has nothing to do with the one that design it but is measured by the number of boats sold and by how the functions for what the boat was designed are fulfilled and that again can be measured by the interest that the sailors have on that boat and the way it is used.

Both the Cigale and the RM are making boats along those lines, basing the hull in Open sail boats, for 15 or twenty years. The fact that not only the boats are used for the function they were designed but that they are not only kept in production as in the case of the RM increased its production by 2 or 3 times show clearly that they are a success and there are many sailors using those boats and that concept for long range voyaging.

The Pogo cruisers are a more modern and extreme concept in what regards cruising and long range voyage but the fact that they have increased production and even so have a waiting list of an year shows obviously the success of the concept and that many cruisers want that kind of boats has voyage boats and use them like that. There are already many cruising extensively in distant places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I think some people try to draw a hard line between "racer" and "cruiser". I say, for sake of argument, that no such line can exist. ...

... I want performance first then I'll see what I can do to get the comfort and safety I need. ... I really don't like the attitude, "I'll tell you how to have fun damn it!"

It wasn't so very long ago that the Valiant 40 was considered too radical to be a serious offshore cruising boat.

I can remember John Neale storming into my office and berating me for being so stupid as to design an offshore boat without a full keel. Now John sails a H-R with a spade rudder.
...
I find amusing that you have said that and then contradict it on a subsequent post.

Bob, like in the Vailant many decades go, the success of the boats and the use sailors give to them talk by themselves.

John Neale, many decades ago, called you stupid for designing what was then a light and fast offshore cruising boat that proved late to be a success and you are calling stupid to designers that design modern lighter fast voyage with hulls based on Open beamy boats. I find that very ironic specially because when jonhn Neal said that to you the Vailant had not proved yet as a very successful long range voyager while the RM, the Cigale and the Pogo are already very successful voyage boats.

They are not only used in large numbers has the RM 1260 was chosen by test sailors from many countries of Europe as 2013 European family cruiser and the Pogo 12.50 was chosen last year as European performance cruiser.

Against facts there are no arguments and it is not you saying "I know you are being less than intelligent. I'd say "stupid" that changes that.

This is not a theory, this is reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
For long range, offshore cruising displacement has it's benefits. .. You need displ to give this. This is not a theory. This is not a philosophy. This is reality.
I bet that it was what John Neale tell you when he called you stupid for designed the Vailant 40 years ago

For the sake of argument, this kind of beamy boats based on solo racing boats are not even the type of boat I prefer. That does not make me blind to his advantages, his success among sailors has a fast voyage boat or the quality of the design functionality and adequacy for the propose they were created.

In what regards that, more than mine or any other opinion, the success of this type of boats among sailors speaks for themselves.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-26-2013 at 06:41 AM.
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  #120  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- There are many places on the eastern seaboard and elsewhere where watermakers are problematic ( silt,other contaminants), and others airless ( need engine). We intend to cruise the eastern US then Carribean ( may need to buy water) then the world. Being able to choose when and where to buy fuel and water gives freedom, decreases expense and increases the chances of not putting contaminated fluids on our boat. Having 200 gal of water and 200gal of fuel under the center of the bilge gives freedom.Given having all the comforts of a dirt house means the 90% of the time we spend in a particular locale will not mean we rent rooms to just have the comfort of long hot showers or a washer/dryer. Given most of the sites interesting to us are in close proximity to the ocean living on the boat needs to be as comfortable as possible.. Behavior and noise at anchor are important to us. Being totally independent and able to live entirely off the grid for extended times is important as well. Displacment makes that possible. I have no argument with you about the light boats. Nor will I argue they can't be strong,fast and safe. That misses the point. Everyone here are sailors. They all know light is fast.
The Valiant had a ~20y run and still are very desirable boats. I gave serious thought to buying the Valiant 50 still sitting in the yard in Texas. My boat has had a ~13y run with more on order. She is fast but also extremely comfortable. Why are you arguing with Bob? Why can't you see there will always be a demand for boats that sail very well, are comfortable, safe and allow the displacement to live on a boat without making the serious compromizes lack of displacement demands? I understand the fascination with speed. I very much enjoy the passage as well so with a reasonably fast boat spending an extra few hours at sea even for an ocean crossing does not seem a hardship against the losses I face in a light displacement vessel. Why can't you respect that view. If someone drew a new vessel that allowed the features of the Outbound ( tankage not requiring replacement down the road, no keel bolts to fail etc) and was faster I would have bought it. Bob's Valiant was the best voyager/liveaboard of that time and remains a great boat. I think in viewing all the functions we want in our water ( not dirt) house the Outbound is the best for us and many agree. Face reality without displacement you become increasing dependent on systems to function to maintain the basics of life. Without displacement comfort, safety and quality of life can be achieved but with much greater difficulty. Basic proven construction techniques mean your boat can be fixed just about anywhere and is much more likely to return to it's orginal strength even when done by clumsy hands.
THAT'S REALITY. put down the glove. Apologize to Bob - respect his life's work. It's ok to be wrong. We all are at one time or another.
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Last edited by outbound; 04-26-2013 at 07:24 AM.
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