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  #121  
Old 04-26-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- they made fewer dusenburg's then yugo's. which is the better design?
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  #122  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Very good points Outbound. I'm at the other extreme with Wolf- I have a 35ft full keel boat with 500 liters of water in the keel and 280 liters of diesel under the sole. The tanks being where they are give me cavernous storage throughout the boat. It's still a "4-knot sh!tbox" as they would say on SA... but it is very well built (a Vindo from Sweden) and it is very easy and inexpensive to maintain. Choices ...

Not to throw more wood on the fire, but how many miles per day does your boat do on passage compared to one of Paulo's examples like a pogo? I know mine averages about 110 miles a day, which is nothing to write home about, but at least it's a comfortable ride. My only complaint is that it doesn't move in really light air.
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  #123  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Sailed on other owners boats so know she ghosts wonderfully. Had one short sail from Newport to Barrington in less then 10kts all day and saw 6s and 7s. No need for engine. Average above 6. On passage other owners say count on ~180. Sailing polar says above 12kt should see hull speed ( 8.32) or better. Trades fine - over hull speed get 200m/d.Tx. Tried to run numbers and from what I can see given usual time of year and course of travel would be less than a day -likely much less between the boats.Numbers may lie. Really don't know a hard answer. See what happens in the ARC and other passages. Spoke with several owners. All impressed what they get out of the boat day to day in all kinds of weather.
Haven't had time to quote log on my own boat yet. Norfolk to R.I last week of May. Will let you know.
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  #124  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Now you are sorta kinda down to the what I was saying earlier, or JeffH sometimes says, if you want to carry the farm on board, you need to increase disp for a given size, OR go longer! Jeff mentions comparing boats IIRC by disp or WL.

Either way you look at it, you need the SA for X lbs disp to ghost you along in lighter winds, or sails that allow you to ghost, or you use the perverbial iron genny like we need to do here in the salish sea if you want to get some where. In the middle of the ocean, a drifter would come into play very nicely!

If you want a boat as Paulo suggests, you need to go longer to get the disp such that one can place the water tanks etc in a manner as to not make the designer, say some bob perry dude rotflhao! or make if fuller with more disp for a given size.

Personally, Brian needs to go longer if he could afford, or find a longer equal style catalina if that is his prefered brand, such that performance is not killed as much with the junque/junk he carries. No different that I see with folks with land yachts/RV's, they think they will load 700-800 lbs in their rigs. usually closer to 1500 lbs, or more if living in it per say as Brian and family are doing. They as Brian has done IMHO, not payed attention to the actual payload that a given boat/rv can carry, with out hurting performance!

I could do quite nicely with a boat as Paulo suggest, and FT10 or equal around here for how I travel. Wife on the other hand. looks at the different DS style boats and purrs. But most of them are slower than dead slugs going backwards! it comes down to finding something in the middle, that is nice inside for her, but has speed fun potential for me. This is probably how most of us have to choose a boat, along with budget!

In the mean time, there is "NO PERFECT BOAT" for everyone! just as we humans look different, we all have a what is our perfect boat, which WILL be different than someone elses.

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  #125  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo just likes a good debate and I can appreciate that. But he borders on being a bully and is a bit myopic when it comes to the full range of cruising boats. That's OK. He's passionate and that's all good.

For the record:
I think Paulo and I have the same taste in boats.
I like to sail fast.

For the record:
Of course the modern design offices all do stability studies. We all use computers now andf all it takes is the push of a button. I love it when Paulo lectures me on how a yacht design office works. Usually these days we do multiple stability studies as we evaluate different keels and draft options. This is a given and made possible by the computer. Before computers, even the biggest design offices seldom did full stability studies. It took too much tie. Still, those offices produced fine, and safe sea boats. It took having the "feel" for what boats do at sewa. I like to think I still have that feel.

For the record:
Paulo's claim that you can use all that volume aft in the flat, wide stern racer type hull for cruising gear is not valid. You cannot put a 100 gallon fuel tank in the stern of one of those boats without bad trim problems. However, in a heavier boat, say a D/L arpound 275 you may have volume below the cabin sole in the keel cavity to install a 100 gal. fuel tank amidships where it will not hurt anything while actually helping to lower your VCG.

That's all I have to say about that.
I have to take my dog to the groomer today. That means from 8:30 am until noon I am going to be in a very bad mood. I don't like to be without my dog. Spo Paulo if you want to come at me please get your facts straight and you may want to rethink your efforts to lecture me on how the world of yacht design works. It's my world.
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  #126  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Always liked Vindos. Beautiful inside and at 50' you can play catch inside. Seems everyone ( maybe even Paulo) has come to the same place. There are advantages and disadvantages to all designs. Extreme designs do extreme things extremely better. Moderate designs may serve "real life" better for many of us. As design and technology advances real meaningful advance occurs. My boat addresses the issues Bob speaks to intelligently, elegantly and makes use of our understanding of the physics of sailing. It's right for the bride and me. I won't be bullied into thinking otherwise.
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  #127  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I've been thinking, again.
"The past is the past".
Right.
Some sailors prefer the past. Some prefer the past for aesthtic reaons. Some just prefer the way the older boats sail. Some older boats are very forgiving. For some it's a question of economics, "I'd love a radical 50' cruising boat but all I can afford is this old Pearson." So we own the boats we like and the boats we can afford. We keep our bottoms clean. We maintain our gear and we buy the best sails we can afford, new or used. And, here's the clincher, we all enjoy our boats.

Today I am wearing a green flannel shirt. That's my choice. It's an old man's shirt but hell, I'm an old man and I like it. I'll be your shirt is different. That's fine with me.
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  #128  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Ok, well here has been one of MY points in all of this.

A can of green beans takes up the size of a can of green beans. A screw driver takes up the size of a screw driver. A spare water pump takes up the size of a spare water pump. Period!!

I have already said that there are things in my boat that I carry that are kid related. Any yeah, I play the guitar and that takes up space too. But when it comes to cruising, and especially living aboard, that is something I know quite a bit about. I don't design the boats and I don't make my decisions based upon hypothesis. I live in them, and I know what you will most likely be carrying!

What I tried to do at the beginning of this thread was to lay out what a cruiser was. It was not to say that was the only definition of a cruiser. It was my definition. And as such, with that type of cruiser, you have to carry certain things. THose things take up space. That space has to be accounted for. You gotta put your screw driver somewhere.

SO what I did was I listed out the specifics of the things I carry, including the space they take up. Funny that many people keep avoiding the specifics of what I carry and keep inferring it is 'all that stuff'. That is why I ask them what THEY would take off. THat makes for a good discussion. In the end, once you have compiled what you would take off, you now have the specifics to determine how you are going to put that on boat X. I think most here would be very surprised to see that there is not a whole lot of things they would take off and will be shocked to see the amount of room it takes up.

My long held argument is that many of the Racer-cruiser boats (what I call a racer-cruiser) do not have the storage for these items. In fact, they often will have shallow bilges, sparse cabinetry, sparse tankage, and many other things that make them a great boat for weekending, buoy races, or vacationing, but simply make the boat a poor choice (not an impossible choice) for the type of cruising I do. For others, who 'cruising' means running down to the nearest marina for the weekend, it will be fine. But when you cruise, at least anywhere near my definition of it, you carry a lot of stuff. Grocery stores are not across the street. THere is not a West Marine at every corner. Even if you have a watermaker, you often cannot run it in the anchorages. You have to take a crap, and that uses 1-3 Gallons/person/day. - before you are either illegally pumping overboard, peeing off the side, or scurrying into a marina for a pumpout. And pumpouts, even should you find one that works, are often a fairly long rid (and ain't free). And I haven't even got started yet on trying to find propane or other things!!

Another point of contention: I began living aboard in 2000 and had my oldest son on board at 5 days old. My youngest son has, with a few periods off the boat, really never known anything but boating and living aboard. We have done it, do it now, and will be doing it for as long as I can see. I know what works and what does not. Boating is and has been our life. So when I read about a boat, chosen as the 'family cruiser', and I come out and have serious misgivings about aspects of it, maybe I know what I am talking about? I would love to know how many of the judges that choose the 'family boats' have lived on their boats, currently live on their boats, and will be living on their boats AND (BIGGEST AND) have raised their kids on their boats nearly since birth?? How many of them do it now? Or is this some industry recognized experts that won a race and somehow are qualified to choose boats and select boats for families? Pfft. Ask a parent, live aboard, and cruiser that is raising their kids on their boat what they would look for in a 'family cruiser' and you might just find we don't like none of the stuff the 'experts' pick.

There are SOME whose opinions I do value on what makes a good cruising boat for a family. Tom Neale is one. He's been there and done that, though his girls are now gone. Interesting, though, his boat selection choice (Gulfstar 54... and you think MY BOAT IS FAT AND SLOW!)... and I wonder how many of the 'judges' have read his book, "All in the Same Boat"?

None of this is to say that you cannot make any boat work. You can Make a boat work. But going back to the point of this thread, the typical Racer-Cruiser will have serious tradeoffs as a live aboard and cruising boat - enough so that I guess (GUESS) the boat becomes more unsafe than its HD counterpart and vastly more uncomfortable.

Brian
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  #129  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Outbound, thanks for the compliments on the Vindo. They are indeed very attractive, though I suppose not for everyone's taste (as this thread has proven!). Sorry to mislead you in my signature, it's 35ft, not 50ft. The model was called a Vindo 50 because it carried 50 square meteres of sail.

And Bob you have hit the nail on the head with this one:

""I'd love a radical 50' cruising boat but all I can afford is this old Pearson." So we own the boats we like and the boats we can afford. We keep our bottoms clean. We maintain our gear and we buy the best sails we can afford, new or used. And, here's the clincher, we all enjoy our boats."

I bought this boat because it was the best quality boat I could afford and it pleased my eye. There are times I wish I could get it to move better in light air, but otherwise I'm happy with it. The wife and kids and I get to go cruising and have a blast. We're comfortable on board and it gets the job done.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
For the record:
Paulo's claim that you can use all that volume aft in the flat, wide stern racer type hull for cruising gear is not valid. You cannot put a 100 gallon fuel tank in the stern of one of those boats without bad trim problems. However, in a heavier boat, say a D/L arpound 275 you may have volume below the cabin sole in the keel cavity to install a 100 gal. fuel tank amidships where it will not hurt anything while actually helping to lower your VCG.
Exactly!

And given what is often very sparse cabinetry, and little storage, many of the items you take for cruising are either tossed on top of the cabinetry, put in mesh bags hanging from the ceiling, or (and my alltime favorite) taking up the entire quarter berth or head or shower.

Not only does this make for an uncomfortable boat to live aboard, but it prevents you storing those things safely below the waterline, it makes things very inconvenient to get to, and when the boat starts rolling those things are jumping all around the boat.

My opinions.

Brian
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