Why a racer for cruising discussion... - Page 16 - SailNet Community
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post #151 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Just curious, did you have a light-air sail inventory of free-flying sails, such as a spinnaker or Code 0?
John has made this point before, and it got me thinking....

How many people make the requisite design sacrifices in space, tankage, strength etc for a "fast boat" and then not only load it up with weight, but don't leverage the fact that the have a "potentially fast" design by having a clean/fast bottom, all the sail control hardware they need and a solid inventory of good sails?

What good is it to be making all the sacrifices you have to make to have the boat with the awesome PHRF rating and then only have a 135% on a furler and a furling main as well and don't keep their bottom clean? What about that folding or 2 blade prop? Some people put a big 3blade wheel on their "fast design" too.

I'd bed that a "slow design" that was all tricked out with vangs, high-purchase traveler, cunningham etc and has a couple jibs, a battened main and an A-sail and Code-0 would sail circles around the "fast design" that is poorly outfitted.

You can't buy fast, you gotta make it fast too!

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post #152 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Med:
My guess is that you would lose that bet/race. I think you'd have to give both boats comparative sail inventories to prove anything.

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post #153 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Med,

the fast boat would still be faster, BUT, the slow boat would probably win hands down on handicap! Airloom does this upon occasion, altho on windier days, due to the boat she races against, size does win too! She is sailed well too!

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post #154 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Not to mention,,,the superb design.

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post #155 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Boy Brent, you sure do make some broad generalizations. They are not all accurate. My ICON with a big wide stern and a very fine entry tracks like it is on rails and is a very benign boat to drive. By the way ICON was designed as a racer/cruiser and had succesfully cruised all over the Pacific from New Zealand to Seattle. It has a very deep, 13'8" draft lifting keel. It is not your Grandpa's cruising boat but it is a boat that has done a lot of cruising.

Any race boat with "knee high lifelines" would nort qualify for any of the races around here or pretty much abywhere in the world for that matter. There are very strict International regulations for lifelines and pulpits.
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post #156 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Med:
My guess is that you would lose that bet/race. I think you'd have to give both boats comparative sail inventories to prove anything.
Well actually no, I don't think so. If you gave them the same inventories the faster design would win every time, but we all know that, so it doesn't prove much.

What I was getting at was that I suspect there are many under-appreciated factors that contribute to "speed" (or lack thereof) besides the initial design and weight of gear.

I'm imagining some smug "fast boat" owners that think their boat will outperform anything afloat when in fact they aren't doing everything they can to make it fast. Meanwhile I'll try and stay smug in the knowledge that my boat wins in the "comfort at anchor" race.

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post #157 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Ahh, Med,,, I'm not sure you understood my post or perhaps I said it poorly. The fast boat will most certainly win. That's why they call it the "fast" boat.

Of course a poorly maintained and equipped boat will suffer in the performance department wherther it's a heavy boat or a light boat. No news there as yoiu say. The most succesful racers spend a lot of time maing sure everything on the boat is at it's max performance level. You can't win a tacking duel with a frozen primary winch. No news there either.

But you are correct, there is no way to objectively measure the "comfort at anchor" factor. And that may involve much more than just volume. I look at some modern "crossover" type boats with very light and sparse interiors. Is that what I want when cruising? Well, I think it would do the job alright but I'm not sure it would satisfy that part of me that drew me to yachting originally. I kind of like the dark, woody interiors. Kind of hard to measure that feel but it's real.

Sometimes in the harbor after being anchored a few hours I see an old boat come in. It's just about dusk and I know this guy has been sailing all day, slowly tacking back and forth ignorrant of tidal currents and back eddies and just beating up the sound the best he can with his blown out sails and funcky bottom.

The guy gets one of the last good anchorage spots in the harbor, drops his hook and begings tidying up his boat as the sun sets. Sometimes I'm jealous of that guy.
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post #158 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Boy Brent, you sure do make some broad generalizations. They are not all accurate. My ICON with a big wide stern and a very fine entry tracks like it is on rails and is a very benign boat to drive. By the way ICON was designed as a racer/cruiser and had succesfully cruised all over the Pacific from New Zealand to Seattle. It has a very deep, 13'8" draft lifting keel. It is not your Grandpa's cruising boat but it is a boat that has done a lot of cruising.

Any race boat with "knee high lifelines" would nort qualify for any of the races around here or pretty much abywhere in the world for that matter. There are very strict International regulations for lifelines and pulpits.
Many years ago you told a friend of mine that asymetrical waterlines give better directional stability. The boat you designed for him ,based on that assumption, had none. He was very disappointed with it. He went back to building Spencers, which he had much experience with, boats with much finer sterns, and resulting good directional stability.

Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
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post #159 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Brent I would never have said that. You can delude yourself all you want. But I would never have said that. You are being stupid and desperate. If anythihg I would have said the opposite. Just look at the old Valiant 40. It had symetrical waterlines ( fore and aft). I have always advocated fore and aft symetry in waterlines, within reason.

Now let's be men here, Be specific. Name the boat. Step up. Name the boat. Come on.

I have never said that. Now it's up to you to provide the truth.
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Last edited by bobperry; 04-27-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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post #160 of 238 Old 04-27-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Bob,

Unfortunetly, Icon was behind the Carr a bit ago off of edmonds coming back from protection island. both were screaming upwind! going to be a quick race for the long course, would not surprise me if they were not all finished by 10 pm at the latest.

I was on the phone to another friend that I thought woudl be racing, he was surprised when I mentioned the Carr was in first OA, we bothfigured withthe way icon was powered up with this current owner, she should have been in front. might have been tacks to the south, but it did look like after a bit Icon might have passed the carr......who knows from Edmonds looking 5 miles south..

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