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  #171  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Hey Jon,

One of our good friends that are cruisers just pulled off their cruising chute and stuck it in storage. Why? It took up too much room that became necessary for other things.

Food for thought.

Brian
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  #172  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Sorry for the late reply. Was tied up on boat things... can you believe it???

Ok, lets see...

Winds under 10 kts? Depends. If the wind is behind me (running), I will motor because I will motor at almost hull speed (8ish). If I am making to weather, I will motorsail. It all depends on the winds, but this generally puts me at (or close to) hull speed. But it also depends on when I have to make my next point. I dont mind a leisurely sail. When the kids are down below at school, sometimes that is the best.

BTW, what was your hull number? If you don't remember, what year was it?

As someone who has cruised and lived aboard, consider all the stuff you carried, Jorgenl. Think about where you put it all. Now, go put yourself in a racer-cruiser (a J122 or First) and tell me where all that stuff goes? My point in this is that, depending on your manner of cruising or what your definition of it is, you simply do not have the room to properly stowe all that stuff on many of these boats. And many of the things you carry I believe would be unwise to do without. Instead, what I expect would happen on many of these boats, is that you would end up stuffing the quarter berth with stuff, nets hanging down from the cabin, bags stuffed in every corner, etc. There are of course boats that are faster than the C400 and still have good stowage. Boats that come to mind that I have been on are the Sabres and Tartans, but there are many more. Of course, you are starting to ratchet up the money too... I mean if money wasn't an object, I guess we would all be sailing around on Gunboats and huge Swans. Unfortunately, it is an option and a real reality with most people.

So it is not comfort I am saying is the reason to avoid many of the racer-cruisers, it is their ability to effectively handle the stuff that comes along with cruising.

You also mentioned that you would not go with another inmast? Why? We have more miles under our keel than I can count and have never had a single issue. In fact, I love it.

Brian
G'Day Brian,

My hull was #243. 2002 model.

Why not in mast:

1. Basically because of sailshape and performance. I nearly always had a small flap or "flutter" in the leech. Drove me crazy. Hard to control sail shape.

2. Never had any issues with sail not furling/unfurling - but it sure is slooow to furl. A trad main with batt cars can be dropped in 1 s should it be necessary (after coming thru a cut in the Bahamas and having very little space to maneuver while furling main).

3. I would much prefer a traditional main with harken batt cars (although the batt cars also detract from perfomance somewhat...)

Space for all the stuff:

We were only two people on our cruise, wife and I. No kids. If two people cannot fit their stuff on a 40' boat (even if it is a J122) - they have too much stuff.

I carried a lot of tools and spares, remnants of my once decent wine cellar ;-) and cruising guides, charts etc. No books - kindle or ipad takes careof that. three small laptops, small printer, scanner, foulies, ditch bag, first aid kit etc etc. We had space to spare while cruising.

While living on the boat and going to work - differrent story. One need a lot more clothes, shoes etc, especially north of Florida where it gets cold in winter.

Don't get me wrong, I loved our C400, I think it is an excellent boat for what we did.

If I bought a boat again for weekend and occasional week long sails on Chesapeake bay (where summer winds are often light) it would be smaller, maybe 32'-35'. Less systems - more performance and more sailing.
2 people do not need a 40' for that, and I find that the larger the boat the less inclined one is to take it our for a 2 hr sail on a wednesday night after work or for a casual race.

If I bought a boat again for long term cruising - I would carefully consider a performance catamaran (if I had the $$$).

Now, I'm thinking about what kind of tractor to get... ;-)

Last edited by jorgenl; 05-02-2013 at 02:17 PM.
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  #173  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
G'Day Brian,

My hull was #243. 2002 model.

Why not in mast:

1. Basically because of sailshape and performance. I nearly always had a small flap or "flutter" in the leech. Drove me crazy. Hard to control sail shape.

2. Never had any issues with sail not furling/unfurling - but it sure is slooow to furl. A trad main with batt cars can be dropped in 1 s should it be necessary (after coming thru a cut in the Bahamas and having very little space to maneuver while furling main).

3. I would much prefer a traditional main with harken batt cars (although the batt cars also detract from perfomance somewhat...)

Space for all the stuff:

We were only two people on our cruise, wife and I. No kids. If two people cannot fit their stuff on a 40' boat (even if it is a J122) - they have too much stuff.

I carried a lot of tools and spares, remnants of my once decent wine cellar ;-) and cruising guides, charts etc. No books - kindle or ipad takes careof that. three small laptops, small printer, scanner, foulies, ditch bag, first aid kit etc etc. We had space to spare while cruising.

While living on the boat and going to work - differrent story. One need a lot more clothes, shoes etc, especially north of Florida where it gets cold in winter.

Don't get me wrong, I loved our C400, I think it is an excellent boat for what we did.

If I bought a boat again for weekend and occasional week long sails on Chesapeake bay (where summer winds are often light) it would be smaller, maybe 32'-35'. Less systems - more performance and more sailing.
2 people do not need a 40' for that, and I find that the larger the boat the less inclined one is to take it our for a 2 hr sail on a wednesday night after work or for a casual race.

If I bought a boat again for long term cruising - I would carefully consider a performance catamaran (if I had the $$$).

Now, I'm thinking about what kind of tractor to get... ;-)
Totally agree on the performance part of the main. I don't have your flutter though. That would have driven me crazy too. In fact, I would have jerked that sail down and taken it to the sailmaker!!! However, for the small performance loss, I sure do love the other aspects of the inmast. We were in a nasty storm off of Pensacola. THe boat was really rolling. One reef wasn't enough. The ability to drop in another reef without going forward or leaving the safety of the cockpit sold me. I can take one in or shake one out by myself, from the cockpit, night or day, with ease.

On my C380, we had trad slab reefing. I came to HATE it. I was actually about to invest in the Harken Battcar system too. I noticed that it was such a pain to raise and lower it, not to mention dropping in reefs and going forward, that we did not use it much and at night would often drop in a reef whether the weather warranted it or not. I do not drop in a reef on inmast until I have to. And Kris can drop one in or take one out at night without waking me up or me worrying about her or the kids. I know she is safe.

Using your bahamas example, as I am sure you know, if you blew that main (depending on the wind), that sail probably would not come all the way down, could very likely be fluttering part way on the deck, and would require someone to go forward. I think inmast is MUCH faster than a trad main, and much easier to single. This is from a cruising point of view. Racing?? Not on your life!!

We do have to carry more stuff than you did. I have tried to be pretty upfront about that. But a lot of the stuff I carry - tools, spare parts, tender, books, charts, etc... are things that would carry over no matter how many were on board. And the tankage on many of those boats simply would not work.

Regarding the performance cats? I have been on many cats, I would not call any of them performance. They at first look like a great deal. But we were on a lagoon with good friends of ours and they hate the lack of storage. Just two of them and they are FT Cruising. Theirs is only a 36 or 38 though. ALso, better start checking out slip availability before going too far! You might find many of the marinas either don't have space for you, can't fit you, or will charge you a ridiculous price for putting your cat there. However, other than their cost and their slip availability, they sure do offer a LOT of positives! I personally would not rule one out, though if I was looking at paying that much, I might lean more to a Taswell or Hylas or HR that just had more waterline.

Brian
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  #174  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Regarding the performance cats? I have been on many cats, I would not call any of them performance. They at first look like a great deal. But we were on a lagoon with good friends of ours and they hate the lack of storage. Just two of them and they are FT Cruising. Theirs is only a 36 or 38 though. ALso, better start checking out slip availability before going too far! You might find many of the marinas either don't have space for you, can't fit you, or will charge you a ridiculous price for putting your cat there. However, other than their cost and their slip availability, they sure do offer a LOT of positives! I personally would not rule one out, though if I was looking at paying that much, I might lean more to a Taswell or Hylas or HR that just had more waterline.

Brian
Brian, I do not consider Lagoons performace Cats. Under most circumstances they seem to be (same length) about as fast as our C400.

We sailed with a Lagoon 380 from Great Sale Cay to FT Pierce, about 24 hrs, in different conditions starting at 10 kts SSW and finishing around 20-25 kts SSE. They got there 0.5 NM before us. That could be because I reefed when winds started to be sustained at 20 kts.

I would look at at for example a Fusion 40. During that sail from GSC to Ft Pierce, a buddy on a Fusion 40 started several hrs behind us, overtook us as we entered the Gulf Stream and we never saw him again ... ;-).

I do think that a Lagoon 380 or 420 has plenty of volume for storage (they just don't like weight that much).

And just imagine the number of solar panels you can put on the huge bimini hard top. You can sell power back to the grid.

Another benefit with a cat, especially if you like motoring - they have two of them engines! talk about redundancy ;-)
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  #175  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
Brian, I do not consider Lagoons performace Cats. Under most circumstances they seem to be (same length) about as fast as our C400.

We sailed with a Lagoon 380 from Great Sale Cay to FT Pierce, about 24 hrs, in different conditions starting at 10 kts SSW and finishing around 20-25 kts SSE. They got there 0.5 NM before us. That could be because I reefed when winds started to be sustained at 20 kts.

I would look at at for example a Fusion 40. During that sail from GSC to Ft Pierce, a buddy on a Fusion 40 started several hrs behind us, overtook us as we entered the Gulf Stream and we never saw him again ... ;-).

I do think that a Lagoon 380 or 420 has plenty of volume for storage (they just don't like weight that much).

And just imagine the number of solar panels you can put on the huge bimini hard top. You can sell power back to the grid.

Another benefit with a cat, especially if you like motoring - they have two of them engines! talk about redundancy ;-)
I have not been on a FUsion. I would have to check that out.

The storage space on our friends really isn't great. It looks like it would be, especially given the forward port hull which is like a little garage, but the room for clothes or other things in the staterooms is not good and the cabinetry in the galley is minimal. This is actually more their opinion than mine. I also asked them what they make good, and they make 7.5. I can easily make 7.5.

How fast was your C400? DId you keep her at or around hull speed? Over? Under?

Brian
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  #176  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Jon,

One of our good friends that are cruisers just pulled off their cruising chute and stuck it in storage. Why? It took up too much room that became necessary for other things.

Food for thought.

Brian
Well, that merely confirms what my lyin' eyes have been telling me for years... Namely, that for many of the cruising sailors I see out there, the art and enjoyment of sailing is simply not a particularly high priority...

NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)

If the day ever comes when I find myself removing my free-flying sails to make room for "other things", I'll know it's time to start browsing Yachtworld in search of something like this...


Cruisingdad likes this.

Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-02-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  #177  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I love "race" boats, or performance cruisers as Paulo calls them.
Brian, I call race boats to race boats, meaning boats that are designed exclusively to race. I call performance cruisers boats to all boats that are meant to cruise fast. Some of them can also be used for racing and they are dual purpose boats (cruiser-racers), others, like Pogo, Cigale or RM are just fast cruisers or voyage boats, not designed for a dual purpose use. It is not me that call them that way. All Europeans call them that way and I guess some Americans too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

... it is because they are traditionally narrow beamed,... I am talking about their sheer ability to carry and stowe the items needed for cruising in my view of what cruising is. These boats would make great weekenders or vacation boats, but where do you put the spare water pump? The spare alternator and bilge pump? Where do you put massive amounts of tools? What about books and charts? How do you make the tiny blackwater tanks work which are fine for weekending or if you are always at a marina, but not so great when on the hook or ball. What do you do about the low water tankage? What are you going to do to keep up your power load? Where do you stowe your tender and the gas required to make it run? Where do you stowe your liferaft? Etc, etc...

So my point is that when you start adding up all the things that are 'required' to cruise ... SO in the end, what you have is no longer a performance boat or a racer-cruiser. Is it faster than the typical cruiser? Sure... but how much faster, a....
Narrow beamed...you certainly are not talking about the Cigale, RM or the Pogo

Regarding being able to carry all the needed stuff how can be otherwise if many of those boats circumnavigate?

I have been flowing the voyage of Capado, a Fox 10.20, a much smaller boat than a J122 and certainly one with a lot less storage. It carries enough storage to make their owners happy (a couple) while circumnavigating and regarding speed and storage they crossed the South Atlantic doing over 8K. I doubt that your boat could do that and it is a much bigger boat.

CAPADO creative boat

Le Voyage de Capado: Videothèque

Not saying that your boat is not perfect for you or others like you but keeping defending that it is the perfect boat for all and that all the stuff you carry are necessary to all cruisers just does not make sense.

Brian, there are lot's of people out there cruising and voyaging and circumnavigating in boats you call racers and some a lot smaller than your boat. If they are doing that in those boats it is not only because it can be done but also because those boats are the ones that fit their life style and their sailing pleasure. I don't understand your difficulty in accepting that and I say accepting because it is the reality.

Brian you are in denial mode

Regards

Paulo
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  #178  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
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Well, that merely confirms what my lyin' eyes have been telling me for years... Namely, that for many of the cruising sailors I see out there, the art and enjoyment of sailing is simply not a particularly high priority...

NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)

If the day ever comes when I find myself removing my free-flying sails to make room for "other things", I'll know it's time to start browsing Yachtworld in search of something like this...


hahahahaha!

Brian
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  #179  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I have not been on a FUsion. I would have to check that out.

The storage space on our friends really isn't great. It looks like it would be, especially given the forward port hull which is like a little garage, but the room for clothes or other things in the staterooms is not good and the cabinetry in the galley is minimal. This is actually more their opinion than mine. I also asked them what they make good, and they make 7.5. I can easily make 7.5.

How fast was your C400? DId you keep her at or around hull speed? Over? Under?

Brian
Fusion Kit Catamarans

Boomerang is the one that we met in the bahamas. Check out that galley. very nice layout. Check out the double drawer stainless fridges and freezers. Much better than a C400.

I do agree that Lagoons, especially the 380, has small galleys. They have somewhat adressed that on the Lagoon 400.

Check out the Lagoon 400. LAGOON Catamaran - construction, vente et location - constructeur catamaran de luxe, bateau de plaisance et de croisère

The storage for clothes etc in the L400 owner's hull by far surpasses that of the aft statesroom in the C400.

And another benefit, your kids gets an entire port hull to themselves!

My C400 was relatively fast, in 15 kts she would easily do hull speed on a reach. I seem to remember to have seen above 9 kts on a broad reach in 25-30 kts of wind (need to get home on a sunday syndrome). Wild ride and it punctured my brand new dinghy as it was moving around in the davits.

She is an excellent power boat as well, would easily do 7.5 kts cruising at 2200 rpm, so the hull must be easily driven.

It's not that I need to go much faster than a C400's hull speed, it is that I would like a boat that sails very well in light winds because that's when I motored a lot (need to get to where I'm going syndrome...).

Given more time, I would have done what Jon suggested earlier, get a code 0 on a roller.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, that merely confirms what my lyin' eyes have been telling me for years... Namely, that for many of the cruising sailors I see out there, the art and enjoyment of sailing is simply not a particularly high priority...

NTTAWWT, of course... (grin)

If the day ever comes when I find myself removing my free-flying sails to make room for "other things", I'll know it's time to start browsing Yachtworld in search of something like this...


There's a lot to be said for one of those ;-)
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