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  #181  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brian, I call race boats to race boats, meaning boats that are designed exclusively to race. I call performance cruisers boats to all boats that are meant to cruise fast. Some of them can also be used for racing and they are dual purpose boats (cruiser-racers), others, like Pogo, Cigale or RM are just fast cruisers or voyage boats, not designed for a dual purpose use. It is not me that call them that way. All Europeans call them that way and I guess some Americans too



Narrow beamed...you certainly are not talking about the Cigale, RM or the Pogo

Regarding being able to carry all the needed stuff how can be otherwise if many of those boats circumnavigate?

I have been flowing the voyage of Capado, a Fox 10.20, a much smaller boat than a J122 and certainly one with a lot less storage. It carries enough storage to make their owners happy (a couple) while circumnavigating and regarding speed and storage they crossed the South Atlantic doing over 8K. I doubt that your boat could do that and it is a much bigger boat.

CAPADO creative boat

Le Voyage de Capado: Videothèque

Not saying that your boat is not perfect for you or others like you but keeping defending that it is the perfect boat for all and that all the stuff you carry are necessary to all cruisers just does not make sense.

Brian, there are lot's of people out there cruising and voyaging and circumnavigating in boats you call racers and some a lot smaller than your boat. If they are doing that in those boats it is not only because it can be done but also because those boats are the ones that fit their life style and their sailing pleasure. I don't understand your difficulty in accepting that and I say accepting because it is the reality.

Brian you are in denial mode

Regards

Paulo
Ha! Denial!?? (smile)

Just so you know, my boat is NOT the perfect boat for me. Like I said, if money were not an object, Id be in a Gunboat or Swan or maybe a larger Taswell, Hylas, or (my wife's favorite... a European boat... ugh!) a Hallberg-Rassy. But how many of us are ready to drop 1-2 million on a boat?? Come on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have been flowing the voyage of Capado, a Fox 10.20, a much smaller boat than a J122 and certainly one with a lot less storage. It carries enough storage to make their owners happy (a couple) while circumnavigating and regarding speed and storage they crossed the South Atlantic doing over 8K. I doubt that your boat could do that and it is a much bigger boat.

Paulo
Now hang on....



That's Speed Over Ground baby!!! C400 hull speed is 8.1. That ain't bad for a fat, overloaded cruising boat!!!

What does it take to get your RM over hull speed??

Haha!

Brian
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  #182  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
Fusion Kit Catamarans

Boomerang is the one that we met in the bahamas. Check out that galley. very nice layout. Check out the double drawer stainless fridges and freezers. Much better than a C400.

I do agree that Lagoons, especially the 380, has small galleys. They have somewhat adressed that on the Lagoon 400.

Check out the Lagoon 400. LAGOON Catamaran - construction, vente et location - constructeur catamaran de luxe, bateau de plaisance et de croisère

The storage for clothes etc in the L400 owner's hull by far surpasses that of the aft statesroom in the C400.

And another benefit, your kids gets an entire port hull to themselves!

My C400 was relatively fast, in 15 kts she would easily do hull speed on a reach. I seem to remember to have seen above 9 kts on a broad reach in 25-30 kts of wind (need to get home on a sunday syndrome). Wild ride and it punctured my brand new dinghy as it was moving around in the davits.

She is an excellent power boat as well, would easily do 7.5 kts cruising at 2200 rpm, so the hull must be easily driven.

It's not that I need to go much faster than a C400's hull speed, it is that I would like a boat that sails very well in light winds because that's when I motored a lot (need to get to where I'm going syndrome...).

Given more time, I would have done what Jon suggested earlier, get a code 0 on a roller.
I like it!! After dealing with the fridge hassels we deal with, I would love that fridge!! Only problem I see is the cost, though. 2012 is 550k. Start adding on everything else you will need for cruising, and that boat could easily jump over 600 or probably more. THat doesn't even count the tax.

600ish... I would be looking real hard at a late model Nordhavn 46... but that is just me!! (Jon will love that statement).

Brian
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  #183  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Hey Paulo,

I looked at the site on the Capado. Did you see their V berth? That is exactly what I am talking about. And I can guarantee you that their boat looks completely different down below when the camera isn't out!

Like I have said, many times, you can do it on those kinds of boats, but there is a big tradeoff.

BTW, any pics of the down below while cruising? What about the decks? Where is their tender? Liferaft? How do they get water aboard when at anchor? Those pics looked a lot like a photo shoot... even with the Vberth stuffed with stuff.

I'm just sayin...

Brian
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  #184  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I like my Hybrid Racer cruiser from the 60's. Realitivly heavy for a racer, great performance for a cruiser. Best of both worlds. I just added a little 8 horse out board for tight quarters, but basically sail enginelss. I leave May 9th for Honduras and the engine will be stowed away before departure. Point being performance in light winds is crucial. My Asym. spin. is a very important part of my inventory. A guy just sailed by me in a West Sail with Tanbark sails. reefed down, club footed jib, making hull speed in 15 knots, on a running reech down Gov. cut in Miami about an hour ago, running in front of some looming heavy weather, and I gotta say I was envious. I think west Sails, or big HD double enders make great long term cruisers as well.
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  #185  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Jon,

One of our good friends that are cruisers just pulled off their cruising chute and stuck it in storage. Why? It took up too much room that became necessary for other things.

Food for thought.

Brian
I suspect a lot of cruisers fall into that trap. They get their boats so loaded down, that the boat practically needs a gale to get it moving. As a result, they find themselves motoring more often when the wind isn't perfect. Then they decide that they don't really use that spinnaker very much, so they take it off, and replace it with more stuff. They are often the same people who declare "I don't need to clean my bottom, I'm not a racer, and my boat is slow anyway!" Not to mention "Why should I bother spending money on my sails, my boat is slow anyway"! It is a vicious cycle that ends with a power boat!

With regards to racer/cruisers, there is more to it than whether or not it has enough room for all the stuff you would like to take with you. Today's racer/cruisers have plenty of ammenities and storage. The choice to go with a performance cruiser has more to do with sailing. For example, In mast furling: from a performance perspective it is not just about the loss of sail area and sail shape, which in itself is not insignificant. It is also about excessive weight aloft, windage, and lack of tuneability. While a cruiser with in mast furling might feel that ease of reefing is great, the cruiser that has a good performance rig may not need to reef at all because they have the tools to depower and control the full main, plus they are not dealing with the extra heeling moment caused by the heavy "tree trunk" furling mast. I also wonder what you do if your in-mast furler jams with the sail partially furled. In that case, you are screwed, because there is no way you are going to get the sail down. Aside from the mast, performance oriented boats tend to be equipped with better quality hardware. Better running rigging, better winches, clutches, travellers, vangs etc. They have more efficient keels, and more powerful rudders. All of those upgrades make the boat more enjoyable to actually sail. To me, sailing is kinda the point of having a sailboat.

A case in point is what may very well be our next boat. A Jeanneau Sunfast 37. It has all the amenities of the Sun Odessey, except that they cater to performance minded sailors with the mast, keel, rudder and rigging. Sure, you have the inconvenience of not being able to deploy your cockpit table underway because of the cockpit mounted traveler, but that is a price I am willing to pay for the vastly superior functionality of it. The SunFast and the Sun Odessey are very similar boats, but the SunFast will do circles around the Sun Odessey. And it can win races too!
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  #186  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
...

Now hang on....



That's Speed Over Ground baby!!! C400 hull speed is 8.1. That ain't bad for a fat, overloaded cruising boat!!!

What does it take to get your RM over hull speed??

Haha!

Brian
Brian, I mean not over 8k as max speed, but the average speed over 8k on the South Atlantic crossing. That means that they have sailed many times at two figures speeds and that is only a 34ft boat.

Regarding the RM, the hull speed is pretty irrelevant, bigger than the one of the Catalina since the LWL is bigger. The RM is a much faster boat, lighter (about less 2000kg) and with the same sail area.

(Brian I think you have measured wrongly the LWL in your boat. I think you have measured it over the hull. The Lwl is a measured in a straight line and not around the hull.)

A Halberg Rasssy is expensive but the model the size of your boat (a bit bigger) does not cost 1 million, much less 2. An HR 415 costs about 450 000 euros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I looked at the site on the Capado. Did you see their V berth? That is exactly what I am talking about. And I can guarantee you that their boat looks completely different down below when the camera isn't out!

Like I have said, many times, you can do it on those kinds of boats, but there is a big tradeoff.

BTW, any pics of the down below while cruising? What about the decks? Where is their tender? Liferaft? How do they get water aboard when at anchor? Those pics looked a lot like a photo shoot... even with the Vberth stuffed with stuff.

I'm just sayin...
If you saw the movies you saw that they have a dinghy. I guess they store it in the central (floor) cockpit locker, but it is obvious that they store it somewhere.

Of course the V berth is full of sails. They are only two (many boats cruise with just two) and they like to go fast so they have plenty of sails.

A photo shoot? Water aboard when at anchor? I do not understand what you mean, but you have plenty of nice movies here, maybe they answer your questions:

Le Voyage de Capado: Videothèque

This was the boat they wanted, they are very experienced sailors and the boat was designed by a friend NA according to their requirements, hearing the NA suggestions. The boat was new and if they wanted for the price of the Fox 10.20 (a custom boat) they could have had an used Catalina 40 (or a similar European boat) with not much years and in good condition. That was not what they wanted, they wanted a fast, fun to sail boat that could be sailed on autopilot with a variable draft and easy maintenance.

Not meaning that this is a boat for all and that is not the point but certainly this was the boat they wanted to circumnavigate.

Regards

Paulo
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  #187  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Ha! Denial!?? (smile)

Just so you know, my boat is NOT the perfect boat for me. Like I said, if money were not an object, Id be in a Gunboat or Swan or maybe a larger Taswell, Hylas, or (my wife's favorite... a European boat... ugh!) a Hallberg-Rassy. But how many of us are ready to drop 1-2 million on a boat?? Come on.




Now hang on....



That's Speed Over Ground baby!!! C400 hull speed is 8.1. That ain't bad for a fat, overloaded cruising boat!!!

What does it take to get your RM over hull speed??

Haha!

Brian
Yeah, you are doing that broad reaching with over 15kts apparent, so you've got over 20kts true? That is the kind of wind speed and angle it takes to get the heavyweights going, and they eat it up. The key is, what can they do with you don't have the perfect reaching conditions. Oh yeah, I forgot, then you "motor sail"

And you do of course understand that speed over ground includes any current that you might have going your way as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you saw speeds like that, and it was obviously a big event for you or you wouldn't have taken a pic. ( I have seen boatspeeds close to that on my 30' IOR boat, but never bothered to take a pic.) The point is, a 40ft performance cruiser would see numbers like that on a regular basis, and not consider it noteworthy enough to take a pic.
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  #188  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
...
A case in point is what may very well be our next boat. A Jeanneau Sunfast 37. It has all the amenities of the Sun Odessey, except that they cater to performance minded sailors with the mast, keel, rudder and rigging. Sure, you have the inconvenience of not being able to deploy your cockpit table underway because of the cockpit mounted traveler, but that is a price I am willing to pay for the vastly superior functionality of it. The SunFast and the Sun Odessey are very similar boats, but the SunFast will do circles around the Sun Odessey. And it can win races too!
The Sunfast 37 is a nice boat and faster than a Sun Odyssey but not that faster The boats share the same hull while the Sunfast has better sail controls and a bigger draft.

One of my the nice sail memories was a passage between Leixões (Porto) and Figueira da Foz: lots of wind and downwind sailing. Some hours before my family was able to shower and get ready to sail, leaved the same marina a Sun fast 37 . When I arrived at Figueira da Foz I was directed to berth alongside it.

The boat belonged to a very nice French, that help me alongside. He was very happy with the great sailing day and he was very satisfied with his boat performance. He said to me that he had made an average of 7.4K and asked me how much time I had took: I look at the watch, asked my wife the departure time and tell him.

Well, his smile was not that big anymore. I had no idea of the average speed, only know that I had had a great sailing day. It turned out that I had made an average speed well over 8K. That does not mean that my Bavaria 36 was faster than his Sunfast 37 ( but it is more fast than the actual Bavaria 36) since I had been having fun and rarely had used the autopilot on all voyage (broached slightly two times). The point is the Sunfast 37 is not that fast.

From that vintage a First 36.7 or an Dehler 36 are way faster. If you can find a Dehler 36, it is a beautiful and great boat. Of course the Sunfast, even if not as fast, is also a great boat and probably not as expensive as the Dehler.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-02-2013 at 06:43 PM.
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  #189  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

The Sun fast 35 locally in phrf is rated some 20+ secs a mile faster, IRC it is also rated a bit faster. The SF37 is a bit of a dog for what it should be! The SO25 is rated about the same as an SF37. Both the SO and SF 37 need a bit more SA to really reach there potential. I know of a fellow in Austrailia that took and SO 35 and added 5' to the mast, now that puppy performs!

Marty
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  #190  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Brian,

8 knots is pretty slow for a 40' boat, I've done that numerous times with my 25'WL boat! Even hit 11.1 water speed. Not sure what my over the ground was that day, with a upwards of 2-3 knot current, 14 knots in a 28' on deck boat, equal to a C28mkII! You has 12 more feet! hmph!


that was before the "here hold my beer watch this moment!



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