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  #11  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Side note on the guy I mentioned who is singlehanding a Bristol 27. Saw a post by him on CF (he is in New Zealand now). He said that he paid $1000 for his used Monitor which is what he paid for the boat. There is no one model of a cruiser.
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  #12  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising?

Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently.
Somehow this has turned into a, "What is a cruiser" thread. I do think that some kind of definition is important because it sets a boundary on how the boat is going to be used. How the boat is going to be used has everything to do with boat selection. Whether anyone here considers themselves to be a cruiser, someone else to be a cruiser, or only thinks Beth Leonard et all are cruisers is kinda beyond what this thread was about. There is simply nothing wrong with using the boat on weekends, months off on far away islands while returning to your home every summer, or full-time, no house, no nothing but a boat and the world and the water beyond. What makes YOU happy is what is important, not the definition of what a cruiser is. Quite candidly, I don't care if you have a hobie cat sits in your driveway on the trailor and you call yourself a circumnavigating cruiser. That is just a label, and a nebulous one at best. It is how you use the boat, and how you define 'cruiser', that influences boat selection and is what I was hoping to discuss... especially how it influences those that choose a 'racer-cruiser' or my definition of a racer as a primary 'cruising' boat. Make sense?

This thread has stemmed from several long discussion both on this board and off of it (more off of it, surprisingly) about boat selection. There was the Blue Jacket thread where me and Paulo highly disagreed, the Smackdaddy boat selection thread where me and Jeff disagreed, and a number of older posts where someone says, "I am going to go cruising and looking for a Bene First or J122 to go cruising on." It is generally at this point that I find myself a bit miffed on how they make this work. Whether they do it or are going to do it is none of my business, and frankly, I don't care. It is their life and their money. This is a theoretical discussion.

As I recall, both J and Bene call their boats Racer-cruiser. My point in this was as a cruiser, how do you make this boat work? Who really has made it work? What did you cut to make it work, or did you cut anything that I carry? How many people did you have aboard? Most importantly, how does a racer-cruiser really and truly perform as a cruising boat when loaded down with the things I find essential? Is it still a fast boat? Due to its traditionally narrow beam, lack of storage, low water and fuel caps, etc... aren't many of the things that a HD/performance Cruiser can store safely and securely, now stored in a fashion that may make them unsafe or significantly alter the righting moment of the racer-cruiser?

Brian
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  #13  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
Side note on the guy I mentioned who is singlehanding a Bristol 27. Saw a post by him on CF (he is in New Zealand now). He said that he paid $1000 for his used Monitor which is what he paid for the boat. There is no one model of a cruiser.
I wonder if I met him!? We met a tall, slender caucasian, maybe low 40's, on a Bristol 27 in the Tortugas. He was with a younger caucasian male in his 20's - don't think it was his son, but not sure. No engine. We had to tie off of his stern to snorkel and dive the Windjammer as there was only one ball. If so, it is a small world. Of course, I find that I keep running into the same people.

Brian
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  #14  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
...anybody know where I can get an extra 6" of draft for my boat, would like it to be 6' vs the 5.5!
If I'm reading this thread correctly, the easiest way to get an extra 6" of draft out of your boat is to have Brian do the provisioning for you!!
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  #15  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
I would also take issue with such a narrow definition of a cruiser. As far as I am concerned, if you are going away on your boat for multiple days for the purpose of exploring, or just getting away, you are cruising. You can sneer at such people and say they are not "real" cruisers all you want but the fact is the vast majority of people who consider themselves to be cruisers do not fit your definition.

If I WERE going to leave my entire land based life behind and live on a boat, I certainly wouldn't do it on a pure race boat unless my intention was a high speed circumnavigation of some kind. I doubt many people would.

In the context of your very narrow definition of cruisers and racers your question is pointless, because few, if any, of YOUR kind of cruisers WOULD use a race boat.
Again, this thing has morphed into something I never said, not did I in any way imply it. If the word 'sneer' was directed at me, I take offense to that. Don't start putting words in my mouth if it was directed to me.

My definition of a cruiser is more to define the use of the boat versus who is a cruiser. Like I said, I don't care if you have a hobie cat in your drive on a trailer and call yourself a circumnavigator. Makes no difference to me and I couldn't care less. There is no better or worse way. My way is not right and yous is not wrong. My point was to point out that there is a HUGE difference between what you consider a cruiser "going away on your boat for multiple days for the purpose of exploring" versus someone who is living aboard, travelling to various places, for months at a time or years at a time. I have done it your way and my way and many ways between. Believe me, there is a difference!! The definition of a cruiser as how it defines the use of the boat is what I was laying out because that use defines boat selection in my opinion. As I stated above, this is about boat selection - specifically how it pertains to a racer-cruiser, not the definition of who is a 'real' cruiser.

Brian
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  #16  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolSailor View Post
If I'm reading this thread correctly, the easiest way to get an extra 6" of draft out of your boat is to have Brian do the provisioning for you!!
HAHA! You don't need me to. Just let my kids come aboard! You would be surprised how much legos weigh when you get enough of them!!

Brian
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  #17  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

It's really hard to make specific references like this is what cruiser is.....and a racer is a narrow beamed boat without " categorizing" a pigeon holing things. The reaction you received may not have been what you intended but obviously is what a few independent people interpretted what was said by you So maybe let's eliminate the word cruiser...as I don't fit your narrow definition.

People buy boats hopefully for their intended uses. It is individual owner specific. You have 2 kids on your boat all the time. Most don't. That means you want two heads, I don't. That means you want a large cockpit, I don't. It may mean you want an open transom , I don't. Beam is important to you or room, not for me if it slows me down. We both like our grills

Tankage is important in terms of fuel, but I can manage with 100 gallons of water and a water maker. I don't want a furled main, I want a performance main which is run on he KISS principal. One forestry is enough or you, I want a detachable inner stay or second furled headsail for long distance passage making. I need a 6gallon hot water tank you need at least 12. I want solar arrays , wind generation and a Honda 2000. You want a generator.

There is much more. But the drift is I want a performance cruiser which gets up and goes. In the 40 foot range a Hanse, a Saga, a Sabre. Something which is very safe and comfortable for two.

There are too many variations of sailboats just like sailors which tick off boxes for each of us to narrow it down. A live aboard will look or different qualities than a world cruiser. A live aboard may have a different view about boat speed and want the space of an IP or such, where a long instance cruiser sees the advantage the of a 5 day passage taking 4 with a performance cruiser.

I just read the blog of a purple on a large J ( a 42 I think) which crossed the Atlantic in 3 days less than most because of its performance in light winds. It had enough creature comforts for me.

This is a hard topic to generalize on as there are so many different qualities and combinations we all require for our boats. I say get what fits you and what fits your needs. I ll get what fits mine and well both be happy cruising on the water as we got what we wanted.
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  #18  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Brian,
Your original question, I think, was "why a racer as a cruiser". I think that depends on what your goal is. Are you using the boat as a means to go from one port to another, or as a means of escaping land? If your goal is to go from port to port, a racer makes some sense to me, because it gets you from Point A to Point B faster than a cruiser, or another way to look at it is that it gets you from Point A to Point C, where a cruiser only gets you to Point B. The racer probably won't get you there as comfortably, nor will you probably be as comfortable aboard when you're finally at the dock, but that's the trade-off, isn't it?

Similarly, if your goal is to get away from land, then a racer probably isn't the best choice. Of course I'm overgeneralizing in my characterizations of both types of boats, but the narrower beam will mean less elbow room in the racer, and most people (there are exceptions, but a family of 4 probably isn't among them) need/want space. The cruiser will give you more room for creature comforts, and the ability to spread out (provided you don't add TOO many creature comforts) more than the racer. Plus, the (likely) shallower keel on the cruiser will mean you can do more exploring, and get into more ports. Even if you're port-hopping, you may not get to the next port as quickly as in the racer, but you'll probably be more comfortable when you get there, and while you're there.

So, what's your goal? To get from point to point quickly, or to slow down and enjoy the ride?
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  #19  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I chose my my boat, a C&C 40, for cruising because I like to sail...really love to sail. I mean, I'm passionate about it; I can get off a two-week delivery and clean the boat up in a rush so I can get out on my little boat and go sailing.

I love the way the C&C handles under sail and I love the feedback from the rudder to my fingers as I lightly hold the wheel. She is very clearly a racer/cruiser with relatively light displacement and most sisterships are used mostly for racing.

While I probably won't move aboard and take off cruising, in the back of my mind is the knowledge that I could. I know of two sisterships whose crews are doing just that.

As I travel, I see very few cruising boats that are fun to drive; it's a major hardship for the self steering to fail on those boats. Not so on mine; she's the kind of boat where we'll turn Otto off and steer by hand just for the fun of it. And that's a benefit of cruising on a racing boat. For me, the sailing part of cruising is just as important as exploring new harbors, rather than an ordeal to be put up with between stops.
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  #20  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

...
Brian, I don't have a single idea of what makes a good cruising boat. I know what I want from a cruising boat for doing the cruising I do and if I went for a different kind of cruising, for instance a circumnavigation or cruising in extreme latitudes visiting lonely and badly charted places, I would not chose a different boat, but two different boats.

The big difference between you and me is that you think that there is an ideal cruising boat for all while I know that the boat that I prefer is just that, the boat that I prefer and that would not be suited to others that have not the same preferences.

Regarding cruising I give an equal value to voyage, to discover different, nice places and the pleasure of sailing and I like to sail fast. But even for people that has the same tastes the choice of boat can be quite different, from trimarans to catamarans to fast monohulls and between them to the ones more suited to upwind or downwind sailing. Even regarding the small number that prefers a performance cruiser the choice is huge. I know that you call the Catalina 40 a performance cruiser and to performance cruisers racing boats, but that is only a question of opinion.

Regarding your question, obviously only the ones that enjoy the pleasure of sailing fast and don't mind to live in spartan way would chose a race boat for cruising. Race boats have the advantage of not being expensive when they are not already competitive. If they are offshore solo racing boats they will not only be very seaworthy, with a big stability, as relatively easy to sail, even on autopilot.

I know of some that are doing that (and certainly there are much more) two, on class 40 that are circumnavigating, one with the complete family with two small kids and also two friends that are also circumnavigating in an old Mini class racer (22ft). They are now on the Pacific after having crossed the Atlantic and they seem quite happy with the boat.

But I guess that is not what you are talking about. I guess that you don't call racers just to racing boats but to any boat that is a bit faster than a Catalina 40

Regarding those, there are plenty voyaging, some a lot faster than a Catalina could ever voyage (and that is necessarily good, just different). Among those there is a nice couple that I had been following in the interesting sailboat thread, that sail a Fox 10.20, a light 33ft boat with a lifting keel. The boat was new when they started, they finished themselves the interior and the boat is quite nice. Here you have the dimensions and the boat on the links:

LE FOX 10,20 - CAPADO creative boat

CAPADO creative boat

Basically a 3800kg boat with 10.20m of length and 3,60m of beam and a variable draft from 2.40m to 1.30m.

Here they are:



Yes, I know that some think that only a big modern light boat has the carrying capacity in provisions, water and need stuff to voyage...and if by miracle all this stuff is put aboard a small boat the boat will be too heavy and will not sail decently...well, did I mention that they are circumnavigating?

And almost finishing and not one of those non stop circumnavigations or fast circumnavigations without having time to see the world. No, they stop and take some time in each nice place, it is only in the water that they are fast, for a small boat. From South Africa to Brazil the average was over 8K. Charged and all

and they have just the boat they want, it was designed by a friend that happens to be a NA, taking all their requirements and tastes in the process.

FoX Technology - Yacht Design and Engineering

That would not be the boat I would have chose for that, I would have preferred a bigger boat, I guess that a Pogo 12.50 would be alright, and I bet that you, of course would choose a Catalina, but that is not the point. The point is that little boat is the perfect boat for those two to circumnavigate and therefore it is a perfect cruising boat, at least to them.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-16-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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