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  #191  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The Sunfast 37 is a nice boat and faster than a Sun Odyssey but not that faster The boats share the same hull while the Sunfast has better sail controls and a bigger draft.

One of my the nice sail memories was a passage between Leixões (Porto) and Figueira da Foz: lots of wind and downwind sailing. Some hours before my family was able to shower and get ready to sail, leaved the same marina a Sun fast 37 . When I arrived at Figueira da Foz I was directed to berth alongside it.

The boat belonged to a very nice French, that help me alongside. He was very happy with the great sailing day and he was very satisfied with his boat performance. He said to me that he had made an average of 7.4K and asked me how much time I had took: I look at the watch, asked my wife the departure time and tell him.

Well, his smile was not that big anymore. I had no idea of the average speed, only know that I had had a great sailing day. It turned out that I had made an average speed well over 8K. That does not mean that my Bavaria 36 was faster than his Sunfast 37 ( but it is more fast than the actual Bavaria 36) since I had been having fun and rarely had used the autopilot on all voyage (broached slightly two times). The point is the Sunfast 37 is not that fast.

From that vintage a First 36.7 or an Dehler 36 are way faster. If you can find a Dehler 36, it is a beautiful and great boat. Of course the Sunfast, even if not as fast, is also a great boat and probably not as expensive as the Dehler.

Regards

Paulo
We considered the 36.7, and I have sailed on a couple. They are nice sailing boats, and certainly quicker than the SF37, but the Jeanneau is a much nicer cruising boat than the Beneteau. The same goes for the Bavaria, we have looked at several, and the wife doesn't like the layout. Dehlers are very rare around here, so although I have liked the look of the ones I have seen, I haven't seen many. (I really like the 50ish footer that is in our club with the cleverly designed fold away dodger...very slick!)

Quote:
The Sun fast 35 locally in phrf is rated some 20+ secs a mile faster, IRC it is also rated a bit faster. The SF37 is a bit of a dog for what it should be! The SO25 is rated about the same as an SF37. Both the SO and SF 37 need a bit more SA to really reach there potential. I know of a fellow in Austrailia that took and SO 35 and added 5' to the mast, now that puppy performs!
Yes, the SF35 is on our radar as well, but again, they are rare. I would like to compare the 35 and 37 directly to see what the differences are. I have raced on a SF37, and thought it performed pretty well against the boats around it, even though I didn't think we sailed it to it's potential. I am not so much concerned with our ability to campaign it seriously as to it's overall sailing qualities. At the end of the day, it is still a "furniture boat"! I would race it in fun club races, but if I want serious racing I will go out on my friend's Olson 30 or some other full-on racer. Once you've raced a 30' keelboat at 13kts it's hard to go back to displacement boats.
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  #192  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Shock,

To my knowledge there are only 4 SF35's in the states, One currently or was for sale in your area, one here in seattle, another in the GL's, and a 4th on the east coast. THere are IIRC 7 or so SF37's here in the greater salish sea area.

If you go to Jeanneau Owners Network - the best independant resource for Jeanneau Yachts and Boats worldwide you can find some performance VPP's for both, if not, I have both once I get my laptop running, or can get the files off of the harddrive into a new puter.

Marty
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  #193  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Shock,

To my knowledge there are only 4 SF35's in the states, One currently or was for sale in your area, one here in seattle, another in the GL's, and a 4th on the east coast. THere are IIRC 7 or so SF37's here in the greater salish sea area.

If you go to Jeanneau Owners Network - the best independant resource for Jeanneau Yachts and Boats worldwide you can find some performance VPP's for both, if not, I have both once I get my laptop running, or can get the files off of the harddrive into a new puter.

Marty
Wow, I didn't realize the SF35 was THAT rare! I saw the one that is on the market down south, but unfortunately we are not quite ready to take the plunge into a big budget boat yet. Who knows, by the time we are ready to buy we might have our sights set on something else, but right now the Jeanneaus check off a lot of the boxes on our wish list within our expected budget.
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  #194  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

The SO 35 is pretty common. the SO/SF37 was/is Jeanneau's biggest actual boat number built recently, around 1200 or so. Most of the time they build 300-400 of a given hull then change the design around. Even my 86 Arcadia, while there was literally just over 600 hulls, the deck went from an arcadia, to a sundream 28, then a sun light 28 IIRC. SA is the same for the arcadia and SD, the last design was sail shortened IIRC also. All three were Castro designs.

The SO35 in that rigs Deep draft is actually a pretty good performer. OR, if you can find one of the 3-5 SO36iP's here in the salish sea, that is pretty close to the same speed potential as the SO35, quicker than the 37 models! A bit more room below also. VPP's are also at the jeanneau site for the 36iP.

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  #195  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
We considered the 36.7, and I have sailed on a couple. They are nice sailing boats, and certainly quicker than the SF37, but the Jeanneau is a much nicer cruising boat than the Beneteau. The same goes for the Bavaria, we have looked at several, and the wife doesn't like the layout. Dehlers are very rare around here, so although I have liked the look of the ones I have seen, I haven't seen many. (I really like the 50ish footer that is in our club with the cleverly designed fold away dodger...very slick!)
....
Just to make myself clear: I do prefer the Jeanneau SF 37 over the 2002 Bavaria 36 and maybe over the first 36.7 (for cruising). You were talking about speed and that was what I was talking about. You can also look for the Elan 37 (I think there are some in America) or the lonely Salona 37. The owner is a member and unless he wants to buy a newer Salona I don't think he wants to sell.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-03-2013 at 05:36 AM.
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  #196  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brian, I mean not over 8k as max speed, but the average speed over 8k on the South Atlantic crossing. That means that they have sailed many times at two figures speeds and that is only a 34ft boat.

Regarding the RM, the hull speed is pretty irrelevant, bigger than the one of the Catalina since the LWL is bigger. The RM is a much faster boat, lighter (about less 2000kg) and with the same sail area.

(Brian I think you have measured wrongly the LWL in your boat. I think you have measured it over the hull. The Lwl is a measured in a straight line and not around the hull.)

A Halberg Rasssy is expensive but the model the size of your boat (a bit bigger) does not cost 1 million, much less 2. An HR 415 costs about 450 000 euros.



If you saw the movies you saw that they have a dinghy. I guess they store it in the central (floor) cockpit locker, but it is obvious that they store it somewhere.

Of course the V berth is full of sails. They are only two (many boats cruise with just two) and they like to go fast so they have plenty of sails.

A photo shoot? Water aboard when at anchor? I do not understand what you mean, but you have plenty of nice movies here, maybe they answer your questions:

Le Voyage de Capado: Videothèque

This was the boat they wanted, they are very experienced sailors and the boat was designed by a friend NA according to their requirements, hearing the NA suggestions. The boat was new and if they wanted for the price of the Fox 10.20 (a custom boat) they could have had an used Catalina 40 (or a similar European boat) with not much years and in good condition. That was not what they wanted, they wanted a fast, fun to sail boat that could be sailed on autopilot with a variable draft and easy maintenance.

Not meaning that this is a boat for all and that is not the point but certainly this was the boat they wanted to circumnavigate.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, the LWL of my boat is 38 feet. With all due respect, and I know you did not mean it disrespectful, but I know what LWL is and how to read a tape measure. I have told you several times that the information on the net on this boat is incorrect... a LOT of it. But that is a discussion for a different day.

Part of the problem with our discussion is what I read on the cruising thread you posted on. We have a different idea of what cruising is, which was why I tried to define it in the beginning of this thread. I am a fulltime, no home, no address, cruiser. I move a lot, or may spend weeks in an anchorage I love. I have no timetable for return to a land life, ever. I can do this indefinitely or quit tomorrow. My boat is my home, my family's home, and our only home. I spend a lot of time on the hook in remote areas that has no restaurants, no parts stores, no grocery stores, nothing. Or sometimes I sit in a mooring fields like I am right now, waiting for the next weather window to take off (to the Bahamas in this instance where, once again, you better load that boat up cuz you don't want to try and get it in the Bahamas or at their price even if you can). It is my intention to sail down to the carribean, though I think we may sail up the east coast of the US this year... or maybe we won't?? No big deal. I move when I want or don't if I don't feel like it. For the type of cruising I do, I have to carry a lot of stuff. Many of the places I go are relatively remote, and many of the places I plan to go are the same. This means lots of tools and lots of spare parts. This means lots of food. This means lots of tankage. So when you or others start to point out boats for cruising, and I begin picking them apart with the issues they will have, we have a very difficult time seeing eye to eye. It does not make my definition of cruising right or wrong. It does not make yours right or wrong. It is what it is, but our definitions really define what works for us in a boat and what will not. As I have said many times, you can make any boat work. But for the type of cruising I do, and my definition of what cruising is, the boats you often point out have significant disadvantages or issues. Because quite candidly, if 'cruising' is hoping on a boat to go somewhere, hanging around a marina, going to restaurants for dinner, then returning after a few days or maybe some weeks to a residence or parking it at your marina, the things you carry are very different. Is that cruising? Many think so. Many do not. I don't. Whether it is or is not is irrelevant. It is the use of the boat that defines it.

If or when you make it to Brazil (and I bet you do!!!), I think you will see that. And I hope you do come. Hey, maybe I'll be there too or meet you around in Guatemala or the Winwards? I would have a blast cruising with you or meeting you and meeting your family. And what's more, my friend, I will race you to the next anchorage (and yes, I have no problem firing up the engine and cheating when you aren't looking)!!!!

Go enjoy your summer break. Shoot us some pics on here. I will do the same. Check in when you can. When you have a nice glass of wine, facing the sunset, shoot me a toast and we will do the same here.

Take care,

Brian
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  #197  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Yeah, you are doing that broad reaching with over 15kts apparent, so you've got over 20kts true? That is the kind of wind speed and angle it takes to get the heavyweights going, and they eat it up. The key is, what can they do with you don't have the perfect reaching conditions. Oh yeah, I forgot, then you "motor sail"

And you do of course understand that speed over ground includes any current that you might have going your way as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is great that you saw speeds like that, and it was obviously a big event for you or you wouldn't have taken a pic. ( I have seen boatspeeds close to that on my 30' IOR boat, but never bothered to take a pic.) The point is, a 40ft performance cruiser would see numbers like that on a regular basis, and not consider it noteworthy enough to take a pic.

I do not doubt that there are other boats that are faster, and especially more performance oriented boats. But remember, this is a FT liveaboard cruiser. Big difference from your 30 IOR boat that you race. Big difference from Marty's. And I think that any FT LA cruiser that can exceed hull speed on their boat ain't bad.

I will put a challenge out to you: Go be a fulltime liveaboard cruiser, cruise like I do, do it for a while, then come back to me and show me your pics. It would be interesting after doing that to see how much of your perceptions have changed, or if they have at all?? Who knows, maybe you would want an even faster boat and disagree with everything I am saying? Or maybe, after living aboard and cruising your boat for a while, you might find that this crazy dad on the internet wasn't so wrong after all.

You see, the difference is that I have done this for a long time. I am typing it from my boat right now moored in Boot Key Harbor. I will be doing it for as long as I can see. I am not giving theoreticals, or assumptions. I am giving you first hand, doing it now, have done it, will be doing it experience. THat does not make all of my experience right, as others can have exactly the same or more background as me and may have a different opinion. But the boats I see out here beside me are not First. They are not J122s or other boats that I consider racer-cruisers. I see a lot of Catalinas, Benes, Jeanneaus, a lot of IP's, a lot of Hunters, Morgan OIs, CSY, CS, Pearsons, Tayanas, Passports (including a new 49 that is freaking gorgeous), some Valiants, HCs, the occasionaly Taswell or Hylas, etc. You know what all of these boats have in common? The very characteristics I have been talking about. THere are also quite a few cats, including a Leopard that just pulled up beside us (have you looked at that boat Jorgenl) and Lagoons.

Why is that? What have you or others figured out that all of these other FT Cruisers seem to be missing? Or is it that they realized what I have been saying: that the theory of the boats you are talking about using as a FT cruiser might sound good, and who doesn't want to go faster?, but in reality just don't work or have too much of a compromise.

Brian
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  #198  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I don't know, Biran. But after watching video of Team Oracle (who are now racing a hydrofoil catamaran btw) I think we can safely say that any boat with one contiguous waterline that is immersed while under way, is not a racing boat.

There's a new line been drawn in the sand. If your boot stripe stays wet, you're a cruiser.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Brian,

8 knots is pretty slow for a 40' boat, I've done that numerous times with my 25'WL boat! Even hit 11.1 water speed. Not sure what my over the ground was that day, with a upwards of 2-3 knot current, 14 knots in a 28' on deck boat, equal to a C28mkII! You has 12 more feet! hmph!


that was before the "here hold my beer watch this moment!



Marty
Marty,

You better clean those glasses off!! That ain't 8 knots. 8.1 is hull speed. That is 9.1 Baby!!!

Still, you consider 8 knots slow for a 40' cruising boat? Are you serious? SHow me a fulltime cruising boat, 40 feet, going over that or that regularly does that?? THere are some - I know that. A sabre comes to mind and a Tartan. But most FT cruisers are SLUGS and could never get close to or exceed hull speed. Believe me, for a cruising boat given what most cruising boats are, that is fast.

Big difference between my boat Marty, loaded down with cruising stuff, and yours - which you use for racing. I have kayaks on the side, a 200 lb tender flopping around on davits, a 100 pound liferaft strapped to the top, half a dozen water and diesel cans on a fender board, a diesel generator, many weeks worth of groceries, over a thousand pounds of water, 45 gallons of diesel, books, text books for the kids, all the clothes we own, guitar, legos galore, four people, a fat bulldog, etc. How much of that do you carry on your boat... especially when you race? Apples and oranges, man. Load all that on your boat, and assuming you can still crawl onboard and water isn't coming over the gunnels, lets see how fast you go!!! What will happen is this C400, with the worlds best looking male moderator, will sneak up beside you to winward, and as I douse your air, I will turn on the engine and the generator. THe diesel cloud will come over you. Then I will crank up Bob the Builder or Sesame Street or Bob the Sponge Pants as loud as it will go. Fatty will stand at the toe rail and threaten to board you (pirate style) and eat any cute little dogs if they stick their heads up out of the companionway. You will peak through the black air, coughing, holding your eardrums, tears streaming down your cheeks, then scream out loud, "CURSE YOU CD!!"

Next day, the Jenneau will be for sale and you will be shopping for a Sabre... always on the lookout to see when you can get even. (BIG LAUGH). At that point you may be able to outrun me, but don't forget, I still got Fatty - ready and waiting!!

Take care,

Brian

PS Looks like I am heading up to Washington next month. Gonna go do some sailing with mom and dad and take care of a couple of things. I think they will be in the San Juans then, but as fast as their boat goes, may take the next month for them just to back it out of the slip! Who knows with them. I won't be there long, maybe a week, but would love to catch up?
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  #200  
Old 05-03-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
...

Part of the problem with our discussion is what I read on the cruising thread you posted on. We have a different idea of what cruising is, which was why I tried to define it in the beginning of this thread.
I agree that is the problem. The problem is that you cannot imagine that another sailor has an idea of cruising different then the one that you have. I have not an idea of cruising regarding what I post on the interesting boat thread. I know what I like and need but I gladly accept that others cruise in a different way and prefer other boats.

If I decided to voyage and cruise in remote places, or if something strange passed my mind and I decided to circumnavigate on the trade winds then I would prefer a different boat, I mean two different boats, one for each situation. On that thread there are many different types of boats for very different cruisers with very different life styles, some much more sportier than mine, others that need or want to do carry more load than the one you carry.

Quote:
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...
I am a fulltime, no home, no address, cruiser. I move a lot, or may spend weeks in an anchorage I love. I have no timetable for return to a land life, ever. I can do this indefinitely or quit tomorrow. My boat is my home, my family's home, and our only home. I spend a lot of time on the hook in remote areas that has no restaurants, no parts stores, no grocery stores, nothing. Or sometimes I sit in a mooring fields like I am right now, waiting for the next weather window to take off (to the Bahamas in this instance where, once again, you better load that boat up cuz you don't want to try and get it in the Bahamas or at their price even if you can). It is my intention to sail down to the carribean, though I think we may sail up the east coast of the US this year... or maybe we won't?? No big deal. I move when I want or don't if I don't feel like it. For the type of cruising I do, I have to carry a lot of stuff. Many of the places I go are relatively remote, and many of the places I plan to go are the same. This means lots of tools and lots of spare parts. This means lots of food. This means lots of tankage. So when you or others start to point out boats for cruising, and I begin picking them apart with the issues they will have, we have a very difficult time seeing eye to eye. It does not make my definition of cruising right or wrong. It does not make yours right or wrong. It is what it is, but our definitions really define what works for us in a boat and what will not. As I have said many times, you can make any boat work. But for the type of cruising I do, and my definition of what cruising is, the boats you often point out have significant disadvantages or issues.
See, that's your problem. You say: "my definition of what cruising is,", Brian a definition is something that is valid for all. You cannot have a definition of cruising without trying to make it stick to all. You have your way of cruising and a boat that fits your way and that's all. Others will have other ways and other boats more suitable.

Regarding living aboard all year and not having a home I cannot just imagine that. Just for my library I would need to have a 100ft boat I am not interested in that as I am not interested in cruising in winter. In fact I have some trouble in imagining how you manage to do that on a 40ft boat, Catalina or not, kids and all.

In fact, in what regards cruising boat design a liveaboard cruising boat is a very particular design. There are no mass production boats designed for that particular criteria. I had a friend that cruised and lived with the family on a boat that seemed adapted to that (it was designed for that) but it was a 60ft boat and even so the space for the kids was not much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Because quite candidly, if 'cruising' is hoping on a boat to go somewhere, hanging around a marina, going to restaurants for dinner, then returning after a few days or maybe some weeks to a residence or parking it at your marina, the things you carry are very different. Is that cruising? Many think so. Many do not. I don't. Whether it is or is not is irrelevant. It is the use of the boat that defines it.
There you go

Each case is a case but on my 100 days of cruising last year I had been 4 times in a Marina, two because I damaged the sails and I had to go there one day to deliver them and another to pick them. My water tankage is good for 3 weeks, not taking special care with the water consumption.

On the 100 days I wasted about 250 liters of diesel (mostly for charging the batteries) and sailed about 3000 Nm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
If or when you make it to Brazil (and I bet you do!!!), I think you will see that. And I hope you do come. Hey, maybe I'll be there too or meet you around in Guatemala or the Winwards? I would have a blast cruising with you or meeting you and meeting your family. And what's more, my friend, I will race you to the next anchorage (and yes, I have no problem firing up the engine and cheating when you aren't looking)!!!!

Go enjoy your summer break. Shoot us some pics on here. I will do the same. Check in when you can. When you have a nice glass of wine, facing the sunset, shoot me a toast and we will do the same here.

Take care,
Thanks Brian,

It is not my summer break, it is my 4 months sailing season

That Brazil cruise does not mean much to me without my kids, I will not be an year without seeing them so it will not depend on me.

It seems a lot easier to me for you to come sailing on the Med, after all you live with your kids on the boat. If you do I will be more than glad to help. Not all places are expensive and some of the better natural ports are there.

Have a nice passage to Bahamas. I am waiting for those pics.

Regards

Paulo
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