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  #211  
Old 05-05-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
...
Of course, if you have the money you can get there fast AND comfy! Imagine having this:





And still being able to do this:

A Riptide 50, beautiful boat and a very expensive one.

But you don't need such a fast boat (that needs a crew to go that fast downwind - it is not a solo based boat) to have a very fast performance boat compared with a Catalina with about the same or more interior storage space.

It is true that for that and comparing a production main market cruiser and a performance cruiser you need to go for a bigger boat (probably with the same weight) than the mass production cruiser, with some exceptions like the RM.

The boats are much better rigged and tend to be a bit more expensive but then the Catalina is also an expensive one in what regards main market and if we look at the used market than that difference is really small if any, in what regards the year of the boat.

Regarding not expensive good performance cruisers with a storage compared to the Catalina I am thinking of the 2 cabin versions of the Salona 44 or the Dufour 45:





The previous model, the Dufour 44 is around for sometime as the Salona 44 and you can get them as low as 120 000 euros for a 2008 boat (ex-charter boat), so in what regards used boats the difference will be minimal.

2008 Dufour 44 Performance Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Of course, not all need the interior space of a a Catalina 400 for cruising. Most that cruise don't live permanently with the family on a boat and many are just couples most of the time and that makes the needed storage a lot less demanding.

For me, a well designed 38ft performance cruiser will be enough in what regards storage. Some will be happy with smaller boats and rarely couples need more than the space offered by a 40ft performance cruisers...but then they can always buy bigger.

Regards

Paulo
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  #212  
Old 05-05-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
A Riptide 50, beautiful boat and a very expensive one.

But you don't need such a fast boat (that needs a crew to go that fast downwind - it is not a solo based boat) to have a very fast performance boat compared with a Catalina with about the same or more interior storage space.

It is true that for that and comparing a production main market cruiser and a performance cruiser you need to go for a bigger boat (probably with the same weight) than the mass production cruiser, with some exceptions like the RM.

The boats are much better rigged and tend to be a bit more expensive but then the Catalina is also an expensive one in what regards main market and if we look at the used market than that difference is really small if any, in what regards the year of the boat.

Regarding not expensive good performance cruisers with a storage compared to the Catalina I am thinking of the 2 cabin versions of the Salona 44 or the Dufour 45:


Of course, not all need the interior space of a a Catalina 400 for cruising. Most that cruise don't live permanently with the family on a boat and many are just couples most of the time and that makes the needed storage a lot less demanding.

For me, a well designed 38ft performance cruiser will be enough in what regards storage. Some will be happy with smaller boats and rarely couples need more than the space offered by a 40ft performance cruisers...but then they can always buy bigger.

Regards

Paulo
Yes, that is why I said "If you have the money", but the owners of that boat do use it for family cruising, and although it may not go quite as fast as it does with a full race crew, the water ballast makes it extremely quick, even single or double handed. They don't give up anything in the way of creature comforts, and can still get from Victoria Bc to Maui Hawaii in less than 2 weeks! (Ok, I will concede they may not have as many places to stash 1000lb of canned food, but who cares!)
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  #213  
Old 05-05-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

FWIW, I think that the answer to CD's original question lies with his orginal post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer.
With that definition in mind, the difference between "cruising" and "racing" in any boat of any size you care to mention is nothing other than: weight. ie. Safe, comfortable, long-term cruising requires being able to carry lots of "stuff". High-performance, short-term racing requires getting rid of lots of "stuff".

Therefore, to work out whether or not a particular boat will work for you requires first off, working out the weight of all the "stuff" (people, food, bikes, tvs, laptops, coffee mugs, etc.) you intend to take along with you and, with that number, working out precisely how large a boat you need to carry that weight whilst still maintaining whatever performance you're wanting for where you're going. This is exactly the way ancient explorers like Cook tackled the same problem.

Crunching the numbers, you'll quickly find that the reason why so many typical cruising yachts are HD is simply because they are designed to carry the maximum amount of stuff in the minimum size (capital cost)... and that to maintain greater-than-hull-speed performance from a racer whilst carrying the same amount of stuff requires something looking very much like a superyacht.
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Last edited by Classic30; 05-05-2013 at 09:19 PM.
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  #214  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Seems to be a consensus that weight carrying ability and storage space and fuel/water capacity are meaningful to cruisers of all strips. Still, within that genre that are faster and slower vessels. Boats that are more or less comfortable. Boat that are easier or harder to maintain and to sail. The other side of expense is what you do once you get there. Many will want to get off the boat- take a long hot shower and go do their laundry then go to a restaurant. Others go to places where that's just not feasible or they deem it undesireable and would rather choose if,when and why they leave their boat. Personally, I like the concept of being self contained and self reliant. I like the idea of living on my boat and venturing forth when it suits my fancy. Not out of need.If you feel more secure,at ease and comfortable (e.g. "at home") on your boat than on land you are on the right cruisng boat for you.
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  #215  
Old 05-05-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
FWIW, I think that the answer to CD's original question lies with his orginal post:

With that definition in mind, the difference between "cruising" and "racing" in any boat of any size you care to mention is nothing other than: weight. ie. Safe, comfortable, long-term cruising requires being able to carry lots of "stuff". High-performance, short-term racing requires getting rid of lots of "stuff".

Therefore, to work out whether or not a particular boat will work for you requires first off, working out the weight of all the "stuff" (people, food, bikes, tvs, laptops, coffee mugs, etc.) you intend to take along with you and, with that number, working out precisely how large a boat you need to carry that weight whilst still maintaining whatever performance you're wanting for where you're going. This is exactly the way ancient explorers like Cook tackled the same problem.

Crunching the numbers, you'll quickly find that the reason why so many typical cruising yachts are HD is simply because they are designed to carry the maximum amount of stuff in the minimum size (capital cost)... and that to maintain greater-than-hull-speed performance from a racer whilst carrying the same amount of stuff requires something looking very much like a superyacht.
Hartley there are not many cruising yachts with high displacement, except old ones. Today they are very rare.

What defines a performance cruising boat is not " that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions". Most modern cruising boat can do that, including a Catalina 400. What defines a performance cruiser is that he is capable of doing that with a lot less wind than a non performance cruiser.

Regarding carrying load Bob Perry explained already that the ability to carry load has not to do with the weight of the boat and even if nobody in his right mind would want to put unnecessary weight on a fast boat, the chances are that even carrying all the load the heavy boat carries, the performance cruiser would be faster than the Heavy weight, being both boats the same length.

Off course that would depend on the boat hull shape but normally modern boats are beamier than older boats and that contributes for the loading capacity.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-06-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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  #216  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
... The other side of expense is what you do once you get there. Many will want to get off the boat- take a long hot shower and go do their laundry then go to a restaurant.

Others go to places where that's just not feasible or they deem it undesireable and would rather choose if,when and why they leave their boat. Personally, I like the concept of being self contained and self reliant. I like the idea of living on my boat and venturing forth when it suits my fancy. ....
I have showed you that your idea that only your type of boat can cruise extensively or voyaging and all lighter performance cruisers are marina boats, day sailers or week end cruisers and unable to travel to far places makes no sense because they are out there doing what you say they cannot do.

I have posted repeatedly about sailors that are doing that on those boats, I have posted about a very light and fast Fox 10.20 that is finishing a circumnavigation, about a First 40.7 cruising the Antarctic and continuing the circumnavigation against the prevailing winds (they went cruising on the Pacific), about two guys doing a circumnavigation (cruising) on a 22ft mini racer, a full family with two kids circumnavigating on a 40class racer and I could go on. These are only some of the more evident cases that proves you wrong in assuming those boats cannot do that.

They are out there, they are cruising on the boats you say that cannot do it. Those boats can do it because they are doing it

They certainly don't do it the same way you do it. They do it faster and in a more spartan way and would not like to do it with more "comfort" on a slower loaded no fun sailing boat.

Why is this so difficult to understand? It is all a question of pleasure and lifestyle. Different sailors have pleasure with different things even if both are cruising. The boats used by different kinds of sailors reflects those different tastes and compromises, even when they are cruising or voyaging on or to the same places.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-06-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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  #217  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- With all due respect as far as I know nobody ( self included) has said you can't you it. It is self evident you can do it. Question is do you want to do it. My boat and many others ( Hylas, Passport, Morris, HR etc.) will gve VMGs above hull speed for days on end. ( my boat's polar is above hull speed in anything above12kt true).Give the thrill of sailing a fast boat well but also pamper you underway and at anchor.I try to not live my life in a testosterone storm and I ( like many) am secure enough that I don't feel the need to be competitive in every venue of my life. I respect your view of boats and life - it is not my own. After exposure to type of boat you keep mentioning my boss said "I don't want to live like that". Why can't you respect that decision and stop beating a dead horse. I get it and think the others on this thread are knowledgeable enough to get it as well.
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Last edited by outbound; 05-06-2013 at 10:42 AM.
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  #218  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- With all due respect as far as I know nobody ( self included) has said you can't you it. It is self evident you can do it. Question is do you want to do it.
That is also self evident. They do it because they want to do it and they like to do it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
My boat and many others ( Hylas, Passport, Morris, HR etc.) ...Give the thrill of sailing a fast boat well but also pamper you underway and at anchor.I try to not live my life in a testosterone storm and I ( like many) am secure enough that I don't feel the need to be competitive in every venue of my life. I respect your view of boats and life - it is not my own. After exposure to type of boat you keep mentioning my boss said "I don't want to live like that". Why can't you respect that decision and stop beating a dead horse. I get it and think the others on this thread are knowledgeable enough to get it as well.
The boats I have talked about are not necessarily the ones I would chose to do it and that is the case with all the boats I have mentioned on the previous post. I mentioned them not because they represent my way of cruising but because those were the types of boats that more clearly fit on the types you where implying that they would not be able to travel to distant shores or cruise extensively. Some of them are extreme examples. They are not the type of boat that I would chose but they are obviously the types of boats that some would chose and prefer.

You are kind of inverting things: it is not me that does consider that any given type of boat, except the one I own, is inadequate to cruise or voyaging or that all that like to go a lot faster than you, because it gives them pleasure, are only doing that on a competitive basis or testosterone thing. That does not make sense if they wanted to compete they would be racing not cruising.

The insistence on the speed of your boat makes not sense also. Yes, there are slower boats and yes there are faster boats. What is your point: Is that the Outbound 44 has the perfect balance between speed and comfort to all? I guess so and that is the problem: Some would like to have a more heavier and slower boats, some would want a faster and more sportive and enjoyable boat to sail. That's obvious otherwise there would not be an offer of those boats and all would be cruising in boats like the outbound.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-06-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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  #219  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Ok- you win. One of the points I was inelegantly trying to make is there is enjoyment in sailing any boat well. Had great fun sailing a Tayana for may years which you would consider a double ended slug. Trimmed well she was a joy. Could walk away from the wheel ( with no brake on and no vane or autopilot) and she would just get it done. Had great fun sailing a racing tri. To me the enjoyment is usng what ever vessel you're on to it's capabilities. When cruising to get the most out of the day. What drives me nuts is seeing a gorgeous boat struggling through- being sailed poorly putting unecessary wear on it's crew and equipment.
P.S. re read my posts. Don't see where I made those implications you ascribe to me. If so my bad.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Outbound: I'm with you. There is a lot of satisfaction gained from getting the most out of any boat. I pretty much like all boats. Paulo can turn any post into an argument.
"I sure like my boat."
Paulo, "No you don't And I'll tell you why."
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