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  #221  
Old 05-06-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Thanks Jim and Bob. In a couple of weeks get to go cruising into my new life. Will not leave you guys behind. You're the best.
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  #222  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Ok- you win. One of the points I was inelegantly trying to make is there is enjoyment in sailing any boat well. Had great fun sailing a Tayana for may years which you would consider a double ended slug. ....
I don't see how you take that conclusion. I never sailed a Tayana but they have a very good reputation as cruising boats and certainly will make happy many sailors.

Regarding sailing slow boats and enjoying them, I owned for many years a 80 years traditional boat and I sure enjoyed sailing the boat and being able to do so without any winch. In fact much more difficult than sailing a modern boat but also that difficulty contributed to the fun of it.

That has being my point all the time: There are not a perfect cruising boat and what one calls perfect depends on what gives more pleasure to each sailor and that varies has much as all boats that are used for cruising, from very fast boats to heavy displacement boats.

It was not me that was defending a given type of cruising boat as the perfect cruising boat quite the contrary.

regards

Paulo
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  #223  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
"I sure like my boat."
Paulo, "No you don't And I'll tell you why."
Funny how you can misinterpret me

What I have said all the time is that no doubt the Catalina 40 is the perfect cruiser for Brian, the Outbound 44 the perfect cruiser for Outbound, the Boreal 44 the perfect cruiser for Steve, the Pogo 12,50, the perfect cruiser for Eric, the Opium 39 the perfect cruiser for Anders and for Nemier the perfection in what regards cruising is a big fast cat (Outremer 49) but there is not a perfect cruiser for all and I am quite sure that Eric would not like the Outbound 44 and the Outbound" would not like Eric's Pogo and so on.

Contrary of what you use to do, these are real guys and members of this forum, all very satisfied with their (very different) cruising boats.

Bob what I have been saying, contrary to Outbound and Brian, is that there is not a perfect cruising boat for all and that some like to cruise in very fast boats, other like to cruise in heavy boats and in the middle there are for all tastes

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-06-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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  #224  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo:
I didn't "misinterpret" you. I was just taking a gentle poke at you with my now almost famous "stick". I was having a little fun.

Besides I needed to lash out at sombody. Outbound called my Tayana 37 a "slug". On the other hand, he said he could get it to balance so maybe I'd better pay attention to him.
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  #225  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Bob I was poking fun at Paulo. I loved my Tayana. It taught me to sail, gave me courage when I had none left. It warmed my body and my soul. Some of the best days of my life were on that boat- the first Hippocampus. That was a boat that sailed well, balanced beautifully and was a graceful lady in all weathers. Kind of vessel that truly took care of you if you just gave her a little love. Bob you made many people very happy with that design.
Once again Paulo why don't you read my posts or Brian's. I still don't think either of us said there is a perfect cruisers for everyone. In fact I would and have stood proud and have argued the opposite when you in your various posts have implied there is.
"Boats that are not enjoyable to sail" etc.Who says so. I can't tell what will make some people happy. I'm tinkled pink when I can figure out what makes me happy and besides myself when I can make the Admiral pleased let alone happy. Find it doesn't help to be judgmental. Learn more from listening with an open mind.
Guess like when you tell me you can train to curcumvent sleep deprivation we see the world differently
P.S.- I think I said I thought Paulo would consider the Tayana a slug. I turned some good days on that boat and she had a great ride in the chop we see in the N.E.
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  #226  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
....
Once again Paulo why don't you read my posts or Brian's. I still don't think either of us said there is a perfect cruisers for everyone. ...
No, only said, implied and sustained that fast performance cruisers were unable to cruise to faraway places. That those boats are not an option to any serious cruiser and that means they are not the perfect cruiser for anybody...and yet they are for some even for long range cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Guess like when you tell me you can train to curcumvent sleep deprivation we see the world differently
..
It is not curcumvent (whatever that means) sleep deprivation, it is sleep management and I had not said I could do that, I said that can be trained.

All solo sailors do and work on that and it is a very useful thing to learn even if you sail with your wife. You never know when you are going to need to be on hatch more time than what you have anticipated. If you do not train that you are going to be exhausted where a sailor that can manage sleep will have a much bigger resilience.

Singlehanded sailing sleep management | Trade Winds Solo Round Britain Challenge

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Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-06-2013 at 09:25 PM.
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  #227  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- I'm a board certified sleep physician. Guess on the othe thread I misinterpreted what you said. Spend part of my professional life training various folks in sleep management. Also am fairly aware of the effects of sleep deprivation. Have spent many hours studing this in detail and aware of its effects. Perhaps you may wish to discuss this off line.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Certainly I like always to learn. You mean training sleep management for a healthy life or for specific situations like solo sailing?

I guess that would be a pity to share that knowledge in private and I bet there are lot's of sailors interested. Why don't you open a thread about that, I mean sleep management for solo sailing? I would be more than interested in participating and learning

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- On another thread I gently tried to point out I was concerned there may be health risks to this activity. There is an area of the brain called the supra chiasmic nucleus (SCN). It sets the circadian rhythm of your entire body. Both simple things like core body temperature, autonomic tone, hormone release and more complicated things like cognition and immune function. It in turn responds to "time givers" such as the tract (not involved in vision) which goes directly to this area from the retina. Activity and eating also feed into it. All cells ( even in bacteria or worms) have per and clock genes. The function of the SCN is to see all our cells are working in concert. If either by choice ( sailing) or demand (shift work or torture) the function of the SCN is disturbed there would seem to be a risk of significant health consequences ( such as the increased risk of cancer in shift workers). Interrupted sleep disturbs the circadian rhythm. The normal functions of sleep for the brain and body do not normally occur.Simply stated fragmented sleep is not of the same quality nor benefit as a normal sleep period inside a normal circadian rhythm. Again in my first post concerning this I expressed an concern that the repetitive disturbance of sleep associated with certain activities may have health effects. I'm unaware of literature concening sailing in this regard and would think an epidemiologic study to quantify the effects if any might be problematic. I'm aware of mechanisms to mitigate the short term effects of sleep disturbance and allow people to recognize these effects to ward against untoward behaviors as a consequence. But as a physician I think it would do the topic and the reader a disservice to engage in the activity you propose as it would give it short shrift and run the risk of not furthering health and well being. Hence, with all due respect decline your invitation
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  #230  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- On another thread I gently tried to point out I was concerned there may be health risks to this activity. There is an area of the brain called the supra chiasmic nucleus (SCN). It sets the circadian rhythm of your entire body. Both simple things like core body temperature, autonomic tone, hormone release and more complicated things like cognition and immune function. It in turn responds to "time givers" such as the tract (not involved in vision) which goes directly to this area from the retina. Activity and eating also feed into it. All cells ( even in bacteria or worms) have per and clock genes. The function of the SCN is to see all our cells are working in concert. If either by choice ( sailing) or demand (shift work or torture) the function of the SCN is disturbed there would seem to be a risk of significant health consequences ( such as the increased risk of cancer in shift workers). Interrupted sleep disturbs the circadian rhythm. The normal functions of sleep for the brain and body do not normally occur.Simply stated fragmented sleep is not of the same quality nor benefit as a normal sleep period inside a normal circadian rhythm. Again in my first post concerning this I expressed an concern that the repetitive disturbance of sleep associated with certain activities may have health effects. I'm unaware of literature concening sailing in this regard and would think an epidemiologic study to quantify the effects if any might be problematic. I'm aware of mechanisms to mitigate the short term effects of sleep disturbance and allow people to recognize these effects to ward against untoward behaviors as a consequence. But as a physician I think it would do the topic and the reader a disservice to engage in the activity you propose as it would give it short shrift and run the risk of not furthering health and well being. Hence, with all due respect decline your invitation
Fair enough and I think you are right on a permanent basis or even on a regular basis but that is not something you are going to use on a regular basis.

I know of some studies and I think it would give an interesting thread. I din't have the time to do it right now (I am almost leaving for cruising) but when I come back in October we will discuss that in a thread. I think it is a very interesting topic.

The studies and improvements that took place in what regards sleep management and solo racing are huge. I remember that 15 years ago it was vulgar the racers on the Vendee Globe having hallucinations and break downs due to sleep deprivation. Today all are trained and accompanied by physicians and there are no cases of hallucinations anymore or physical break down and you even so on the last race, after almost 3 months on those conditions, the two leading racers fighting for victory as if it was a match race, not for one or two days, but for 15 days. You could tell by their daily video broadcasts that they were in good shape and not near break down.

I don't want to learn about that for doing it for 3 months. I guess some days would be enough for me. In fact what I have learned through the years reading about that and how that should be done have improved me already as a sailor and I can feel that I manage much better my sleep needs while voyaging. The objective of sleep management is not being sleep deprived or tired and that does not mean doing that forever, but for a short period of time.

Regards

Paulo
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