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  #21  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

What were we talking about again? Race boat suitability for cruising? Who qualifies as a cruiser? What is cruising? Let’s see if I can contribute without this thread totally falling off the rails.

Back in my younger days I raced on an Aerodyne 38. Loved it. Fastest I ever sailed was on that boat. Totally “grins and giggles” was that boat. Designed under the open class concept, she was the opposite of narrow. She was designed to surf under an A-kite. I lusted after her performance and at the time, I entertained the idea of “gentrifying” one and cruising it with MrsB. A dozen years later one that was gentrified did come up on the market. It had a furling boom and a bow extension for an anchor roller amongst other mods. Despite all the cruising mods, it looked like it was a beast to sail now that the Mrs and I are a bit older. They never completely solved the tankage issues which were now equal to my C34’s capacities. The interior was beautiful, but as Dad said, lacking a lot of storage space – too small for a year in Mexico IMHO. Needless to say we passed on that one. Lately, I been racing classic plastic, namely the venerable Cal 40. MrsB had seen a nice example of one tricked out for cruising (albeit in a narrower hull). The downside of classic plastic is the need to throw major coin at a “good value” boat to bring it up to what we expect out of our boats (we passed on this idea too.) There is a lot to be said about “dancing with the girl you bring to the party”. We are committed to our current boat for our cruise to Mexico in the coming years.

Now Cruising Dad, exactly how much cruising stuff are you carrying around? Back when we were campaigning our boat, we kept pretty close track of the poundage we carried on board and I worried that “cruising” is going to add a lot of weight and kill a lot of performance.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Racers which slowed down while tacking were said to have "Excess directional stability." On an offshore cruising boat, there is no such thing as "Excess directional stability" the more the better. If a piece of gear on a racing boat doesnt break from time to time, it is deemed to be "Overbuilt." Cruising boat and racing boat priorities are exactly opposites , in these, and many more ways
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  #23  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Ahhh.... finally the discussion is getting fun.

Ok, let's talk about what I carry on my boat. I will try and get as many things as I can. I am sure to leave some stuff out. Some of my stuff is kid oriented. No way around that and I accept all criticism from it as valid from those who will not take guests or kids. However, let me share some of these things, you decide what you would or wouldn't want, then lets talk about the space it takes up.



Tools:

I won't bother listing them all, though I have them all listed out for my book. Every (Every!) tool on my list has been used. If it doesn't get used it gets off. In fact, I have bought some tools that double over - like the quick wrenches that accept multiple sizes or converters to reduce the sockets I have to carry. All in all, even after all my pruning, I could only get my tools down to a 24x18x50. That is basically 3/4 of the size of a settee on a typical sized 40 foot boat.

Food:

The bilge takes up most of our food. It is filled with bottled water (and distilled... important for those with wets), can food, flour, rice, sugar, a pressure cooker, a cast iron skillet, dog food, a vacuseal and extra bags. This takes up a comparable size of our settee on the starboard side. We have some room left over except when we fully provision. Everything in there gets used and are essential for cruising for us.

Spare parts:

I carry an extra water pump, extra bilge pump, general diaphragm pump, a spare oil filter, a spare secondary fuel filter, two spare racor filters, a spare belt, a variety of screws and bolts of different sizes, new plugs and impeller for OB, impellers for Gen and Main, strainer and spare baskets. There are some other odds and ends I am sure I missed. THis takes up over a 30x30x30 area.

Detergents and oil:

We carry extra dish soap, boat soap, main oil, gear case oil, and a variety of other basic chemicals that are constantly used. This takes up over a 30x30x30 area.

Galley items:

Zip lock baggies, foil, saran wrap, trash bags, and cleansers under the sink. THat takes up a 12x30x30 area. On either side of the stove are 8 settings of plates and bowls, two skillets, a toaster, and a set of nesting cookware (pots), a collapsible strainer, two silicon collapsible mixing bowls, a container for cereal, a pitcher, a platter, and a set of disposable food containers (which we don't dispose of as we use for leftovers). THat takes up a 59x12x16 area.

In the china cabinet, we keep powdered gartorade and powdered Koolaid and a few cook books. We also keep two china wine glasses, four plastic goblets, two small crystal glasses, four coffee mugs, and six stackable plastic glasses. This takes up a 28x24x12 area. Above this on a 28x12x10 area we keep tortillas and bread.

Our dry storage is 28x18x30. It is filled food, ranging from cereal, lots of pastas, oats, our spare cooking oils, etc.

Our microwave takes up 19x18x30.

Beside the microwave, in two drawers are a 10 place setting of spoons, knives, and forks, including two large serving spoons, spatulas, thongs, and various items used in the galley for cooking. I can be more specific, but I doubt anyone would cut any of these items. This takes up 10x16x17.

Trash can is 13g, and takes up 10x12x20 in the cabinet.

Sink is a double sink, 13x24x9.

Oven and stove are three burner. It is 24x24x26.

Over the sink is the spice rack. It is 28x20x14. It also holds olive oils, spare spices, and 6 cup coffee maker.

Nav Station:

Nav station is 34x36x42. it holds a variety of maps and cruising guides, the electrical panel, secondary chartplotter, secondary repeater, VHF, Water/fuel/waste readouts, radio, Genset panel, battery charger/inverter panel, pencils and paper and other small office type things. THis nav station is independent of the salon settees, and has its own seat. Inside it also has the battery charger/inverter.

Salon:

We have four cabinets in our salon, each approximately 22x11x24. THey are stuffed with the following: paper towels (our nemesis, incidentally), napkins and Kleenex, large cruising guides like Explorer charts for the Bahamas, cameras, spot light, clip on fan. One cabinet is filled with the Play Station and WII for the kids. THe other is filled with movies and games of all types (board games, card games, etc).

Between the cabinets are decorations like plastic flowers. We also keep our books there, though these are few now, thanks to the Kindles.

The TV is wall mount and does not take up any living space.

The entire rest of the salon is taken up with tankage, including holding and diesel.

Heads:

We have two heads. The forward head is the kids head, but we also use it for storage. It is 40x37x76. It holds most of our medical supplies, emergency kits, spare toilet paper and head chemicals, bathroom cleansers, spare cosmetics, two tv trays mounted the wall.

The aft head has a separate shower. All of us shower there. Including the shower, it is 36x64x75.

State Rooms:

We have two staterooms. THe kids is the V berth. It measure at 86x77x108, but remember half of that disappears in the V. It holds all of their clothes (not much clothes, honestly, as we are in the south, maybe a weeks worth of changes), their books and school supplies, and toys. It does have a small seat in it for them to sit at.

Our stateroom is large. It is 12'x11'x78". Remember that part of that is eaten up with the cockpit floor, but it has a queen berth and LOTS of storage. We use one of the cabinets as a dirty clothes cabinet, one cabinet to store various files and safety gear (ditch bag stuff), clothes, my guitar and a small keyboard, a fan, and a small-flat radio. It has two settees in it which store foul weather gear. We use part of the space to secure our computers when under way.

Outside:

Outside we have various items which take up real estate. They are as follows:

6 Person Offshore Liferaft.
1- Dive Tank.
1- 20 lb grill tank.
1- foldable bike.
1 foldable cart.
2 - kayaks which are only mounted when underway on the lifelines.
2- spare 5 g diesel cans
2 - spare 5g gas cans.
2 - spare 5 g water cans.

10'2" tender hangs on davits.

6- Kyocera 130W panels. They have their own, independent arch.

Seat Cushions.

A world-class-seasoned grill.

Each lazarette contains:

Snorkel gear for 4.
1 - BC and Regulator (and soon to be a spear gun and HI Sling)
2 wet suits
Covers for boat when at anchor for shading
A/C Compressor
Diesel Generator
Life Jackets
Extra Dock lines and Jack Lines and harnesses.
2.5G Wet Dry Vac.
AB Fridge Compressor
2 - 10lb Propane tanks for galley.

DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I am sure to have missed a few odds and ends here. It was not intentionally. But that is everything in my boat within reason. So lets now start talking about what YOU would cut. If reasonable, we can start removing these items and calculating the savings in space and potential weight.

I have already divulged that some stuff I carry is kid related. No getting around that. I understand that some of that could be used for other things for those that do not have kids. But what is important to see here is that the VAST majority of this space is things that every one of you would likely take too if cruising. The space killers are not kid related, in general, and shared as boat items.

Also, when you start looking at all these things, now start thinking about where you put these on a J122... a First, or many other boats of similar design. Assuming they have not used a shrink-ray, the space these items take up is the space they take up. No negotiation there. So, where do you put it? I have pulled the boards on these boats, and I am telling you it doesn't fit! So what you do is you start shoving it into the V berth, the quarter berth. You stick it in crannies and crevices, many of these items well above waterline which should not be and screws up the balance of the boat. Not to mention, what did the weight of these items do to this boat? The same boat that was designed at a low displacement is now over-weighted and what effect has that had on its stability and speed?

I am not saying you cannot MAKE these boats work. I am making the argument that it will come at a considerable tradeoff, and the very reason you bought that boat might be compromised.

I am NO minimalist. Not at all. But I am not over the edge either, IMHO. Thre are pleasure things like the guitar and keyboard and dive gear that could be cut easily. But they are also all used and serve a purpose on this boat. What do you cut? Take a look around. These are REAL measurements, on a boat often called a dockaminium, a fat cruiser, extravagant, and all the other acronyms I get thrown toward me. When I go on other peoples boats that are cruising, I feel like I am Spartan, so now you see where I am coming from.

Brian
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  #24  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
..
Also, when you start looking at all these things, now start thinking about where you put these on a J122... a First, or many other boats of similar design. Assuming they have not used a shrink-ray, the space these items take up is the space they take up. No negotiation there. So, where do you put it? I have pulled the boards on these boats, and I am telling you it doesn't fit! So what you do is you start shoving it into the V berth, the quarter berth. You stick it in crannies and crevices, many of these items well above waterline which should not be and screws up the balance of the boat. Not to mention, what did the weight of these items do to this boat? The same boat that was designed at a low displacement is now over-weighted and what effect has that had on its stability and speed?

I am not saying you cannot MAKE these boats work. I am making the argument that it will come at a considerable tradeoff, and the very reason you bought that boat might be compromised.

I am NO minimalist. Not at all. But I am not over the edge either, IMHO. Thre are pleasure things like the guitar and keyboard and dive gear that could be cut easily. But they are also all used and serve a purpose on this boat. What do you cut? Take a look around. These are REAL measurements, on a boat often called a dockaminium, a fat cruiser, extravagant, and all the other acronyms I get thrown toward me. When I go on other peoples boats that are cruising, I feel like I am Spartan, so now you see where I am coming from.

Brian
Many years of experience looking at all kind of sailing boats, specially between 39 and 45ft boats, and for looking I mean actually being inside the boats with my wife taking a special care in what regards storage space I can tell you that typical main mass production like yours are normally more "fat" (to use my daughter terminology), than the typical performance cruiser, like the J122 or an Arcona 41. For having the same space you just have to bought the next size in what regards boat size. You will have a bigger saloon but probably the same storage space.

However some modern cruising boats that are faster than the typical fat cruiser manage to have the same storage space, or even more since they are designed with voyage in mind. that does not mean you like them, but we are only talking about storage and speed. It has also other advantages in what regards blueawater sailing namely a cuter rig, with two front sails on furlers plus alight removable furler for the asymmetric spinnaker. The boat comes standard has a twin keel and can be beached for cleaning the hull or repairs.

I am talking about the 2013 European family cruiser, the RM 1260:






RM 1260: Flinker Knickspanter im Exklusiv-Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regards

Paulo
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Here are two simple observations

For me the generator is not necessary- save 500-600 lbs. at least

For me the second head is not necessary and you could get all that as increased storage space.
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  #26  
Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Say it isn’t so, Cruising Dad! You mean I’m committed (condemned?) to all that stuff and more when we go cruising? I’m thinking of taking a grinder to my tools right now! Why have a generator and no water maker? We see the lack of water a bigger concern and power secondary (except for the amps needed to make water). I actually spent a week as a guest on a friend’s J122 down in Mexico not too long ago. Trust me, it’s a little like camping with the kids as all the stuff normally in the aft state room (aka the “garage”) has to go somewhere and that somewhere is the main saloon. The J is a pretty boat and fun to sail on San Francisco Bay but is a little like a gypsy encampment after nearly a year of cruising. If you really want storage, you need to go way beyond a Catalina and into something like a Taswell. I happened to talk to Jeff Johnstone last weekend and surprise! They are thinking about bringing out more cruising designs as they see their market moving away from the “cruiser-racer” concept. Paulo, what do you think of the Jeanneau 409? Saw one at the show that sort of spoke to us. Was not impressed with the Bavaria. Reminded me of a Catalina but with European pricing. Made me like my boat even more.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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... Paulo, what do you think of the Jeanneau 409? Saw one at the show that sort of spoke to us. Was not impressed with the Bavaria. Reminded me of a Catalina but with European pricing. Made me like my boat even more.
I had the luck of having a talk with Eric Stomberg about the boat. Eric belongs to Jeanneau america and was very influential on the design of that boat. He is the one that played the "owner" part with Philippe Briand , the NA and the boat was made accordingly with what he thought it would be the right 40ft cruising.

I believe that much of the success of that boat is due to him. He is also a sailor and at the time (the first boats were being delivered), he didn't miss a delivery to have the opportunity to test the boat. He give me a lot of insight about the boat sailing qualities and I felt that he was a honest straightforward and very nice guy.

I find the interior design very agreeable specially on the 2 cabin model. And I like the boat that even on the 3 cabin has a decent storage. Personally that would be the boat that I would chose among all mass production 40fts, main market. But as I said that is personal, there are also other fine boats on that class.

I like more the interior and also the type of hull, more narrow than the others and with one of the best B/D ratios (taking into consideration draft and type of keel). They have also a performance package that will make it even faster and it is the only boat of that class that uses infusion. That makes is as strong as the competition and substantially lighter, with a better performance.

The only one that comes close is the Hanse 415, also a good design but I don't like the interior and I prefer the concept of lighter with less sail then heavier with more sail.

The Hanse is also maximized for downwind sailing while the Jeanneau has in my opinion a better overall balance in what regards performance: I sail upwind (many cruisers don't, they use the engine) and I like boats with a good upwind performance, and the jeanneau has a good one for a main market cruiser.

They even can run a German main-sheet system if you want to give you full control of the main at the wheel. The only thing I don't like is the two lonely winches on the cockpit and the impossibility of having another two. That is alright with the self taking jib but with a genoa or a geenaker two more would come handy. Anyway, only two winches in the cockpit is the rule to all in that class, with the exception of the Bavaria that is the only one that offer 4 winches in the cockpit as an option.

I agree with you about the Bavaria. I don't like the interior, even if functional and the boat looks left much to be desired. Curiously it is a good hull. They use the boat in a lighter version for Match racing in Germany and it sails much better than what I thought possible. Well, it is a Farr design



They are making a new boat (with the same hull?) along the lines of the 56 and 33 and I expect that the improvements that the 56 shows on overall design and interior design quality would show also on the new 40.

Regards

Paulo
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
...
I was going to write a point-by-point response to the long list you posted. But after having spend forty minutes responding point by point, I realised I was only about a third through your post.

Instead I'll do this short:

I'm a minimalist. Even at home I don't have many things. I have good things, but not many. Reading your list, it seems you're carrying everything that can possibly fit somewhere on the boat. Obviously, if you consider everything a necessity, you will have a hard time carrying less.

It seems, that not only are you carrying everything and then some, but that you're not considering lightweight options for each items. For instance tools - A lot of my tools are (reasonably lightweight) motorcycle tools.

I will never carry anything cast iron, nor will I want a micro wave. It's a sailboat, and besides the space and weight it takes up, the micro wave uses a lot of power.

As for the generator. If I was to carry a generator, it would be in lieu of the diesel engine. In other words, I would carry a generator only if I could get rid of the engine, and I mean that if at all possible, I'd get an electric engine.

Speaking of which: Batteries! I already have LiFePo4 batteries. I will never go back to lead-acid, agm or whatever. Not only are the LiFePo4 batteries lighter for a given Ah rating, but they have many more useable amps than similarly rated old-tech batteries. And, since things needs to be charged: They are charged much faster, not least because they have next-to-no loss.

I haven't gone through the entire post as you can see, but you can see that even those few "alterations" play together to make a much smaller and lighter system without any real sacrifices (unless you actually depend on a microwave).

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Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Um Brian........you do not need a 40' boat for all that stuff, try maybe 40METERS! so you are about 100M short on boat, get a longer bigger boat, and you can carry all that sheet and then a bit more, and still have reasonable performance.....

THEN, you can get one of the lifting keel thingymabobs, that will allow you into those shallow draft harbors, along with dropping it off shore some so you have some performance!

THere you have whatyou need to do to solve ALL you problems! just get one of them metric style boats, all is solved!

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Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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I'm a minimalist. Even at home I don't have many things. I have good things, but not many. Reading your list, it seems you're carrying everything that can possibly fit somewhere on the boat. Obviously, if you consider everything a necessity, you will have a hard time carrying less.
What do you consider a minimalist? I hear that term thrown out a lot, generally by Americans (which I dont think you are) who think a minimalist is someone without a TV or microwave. I have never met a true minimalist as a cruiser, but have met a two or three in my previous life as a backpacker. Here is a minimalist to me:

They carried everything they own in a backpack. They caught rainwater or drank out of the stream. They fished for food, generally supplemented by what they could find on the trail. No radio. No electronics. Little to no money. They cook on a campfire and start the fire with flint and steel (a long lost art... though we had to do it many times too). The only modern part of them was their backpacks, tents, and hiking boots... all well worn. They disappeared in the wilderness for weeks at a time. Nice enough people, but not for me. That is a minimalist to me. If you are putting batteries in your boat, I personally would not consider you a minimalist. And the batteries you put in are very new technology, again not what I would see a minimalist ever doing.

The label is not important to me, and if you want to call yourself a minimalist or anyone else does, they are welcome to. Makes me no difference. Just my opinion.

Quote:
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It seems, that not only are you carrying everything and then some, but that you're not considering lightweight options for each items. For instance tools - A lot of my tools are (reasonably lightweight) motorcycle tools.
I find that comment pretty typical of someone who has not spent a lot of time cruising. It is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but in reality and practicality does not work.

The tools are what the tools are. Again: every tool has been used on this boat. The weight saved by using the Motorcycle type wrenches may be lost the first time you break one. Not to mention, we are splitting hairs on the small amount of weight saved with the few tools that can be purchased lightweight. I prefer solid, well made tools that will take a beating. If you are land-side, and your wrench breaks, no big deal. Go to the store and buy another. If you are at sea or a secluded anchorage and it breaks, you are screwed... just as screwed as if you didn't bring one in the first place. Modern sailboats, especially American made boats, are filled with a variety of different sizes and bolts and screws. A sailboat by its very nature is 80% made up of things bought from vendors. You will have to carry a full set of metric and american. You will have to have a variety of bits. You will have to carry both metric and american alan wrenches. A drill. A jig saw. Hole saws. Hack saw. A large variety of plumbing and electrical supplies. Can you get away without it? Certainly... until the first time something breaks. Better hope its not a critical system if you don't have the tool for it. Nothing pisses me off worse than hearing some cruiser complaining about a broken waterpump - not knowing where it is, not having a spare, and not having the tools to fix it. Those people are best left back at the yacht club where fixes are a phone call away. As an old Boy Scout, I say, "Be Prepared."

Quote:
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I will never carry anything cast iron, nor will I want a micro wave. It's a sailboat, and besides the space and weight it takes up, the micro wave uses a lot of power.
Another common misconception I see, generally from those that have not spent a lot of time cruising or away from the marinas. There are several modern items that have really changed sailing. The microwave is one of them. My microwave pulls 80 amps/h. Sounds like a lot, but it is not. Why? Because it only is run for minutes at a time. That comes out to 1.33 amps/minute. In three minutes, I can cook two cans of canned peas. In two minutes, I can heat up an entire can of soup. In one minute, I can cook fish fillets, which come out surprisingly awesome in the microwave - both juicy and tender. Those same items take considerably longer on the stove, and the fish for example, cooked in the oven, will use a LOT of gas and really heat up the cabin.

Microwaves can be run from an inverter - they do not require a generator. Their power use is minimal. They are quite light. Their size is small and they make a great place to put things in when at sea because the door can be easily closed and has a positive lock. And most of all, and maybe most importantly, they are readily available everywhere and are very cheap to obtain. Walmart sells them for $35. Your stove can easily run over a grand. Your stove uses propane or alcohol.

Now, as a cruiser, let me tell you what IS a real PITA to get: Propane. This often involves a long trek to some far off propane dealer to get it filled or exchanged... if available at all (not too many propane dealers in secluded anchorages). You can get diesel and gas on the water (to make electricity). No prob. A decent solar system will easily keep up for any loss of electricity the miserly microwave uses. But propane is a RIGHT PITA to get and we covet it, as do all cruisers I know.

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As for the generator. If I was to carry a generator, it would be in lieu of the diesel engine. In other words, I would carry a generator only if I could get rid of the engine, and I mean that if at all possible, I'd get an electric engine.
Is this on your "canoe" boat? Is this something you would do or you have done? Not sure where you would put a generator on that boat anyways. However, the theory behind not having an engine and the reality I think are two different things. WHen a storm is bearing down on you, it sure is nice to have an engine as a calm often proceeds the storm. When going down the ICW with the Sportfish running you over and cutting you off, it sure is nice to have a engine. When trying to make against the current into a tight channel with breakers and shoals around you, it sure is nice to have an engine. When coming into a crowded marina where currents and winds are not favorable, it sure is nice to have an engine. I can think of a thousand reasons to have an engine, but cannot think of a single reason not to have one. An engine can make electricity, but I certainly do not see that as its key purpose. I believe an engine makes up not only a valuable asset on a cruising boat, but it also is a critical piece of safety gear.

You better research those electric drives pretty good, especially if you are worried about weight. I thought I heard even Lagoon dumped them? This is hearsay, but I was told a couple with a 420 was spending a LOT of money to have their electric drives ripped out or considering it. They were at one of our previous marinas. They HATE them.

When cruising, I believe that tried and true and dependable is more important that new and fashionable. Let the guys that don't leave the marinas horse around with the new technology. My life, and that of my family's, depends on my boat and its proper functioning. That is the mindset of a cruiser.

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Speaking of which: Batteries! I already have LiFePo4 batteries. I will never go back to lead-acid, agm or whatever. Not only are the LiFePo4 batteries lighter for a given Ah rating, but they have many more useable amps than similarly rated old-tech batteries. And, since things needs to be charged: They are charged much faster, not least because they have next-to-no loss.
Lead acid batteries are tried, true, and inexpensive. More importantly, they are readily available anywhere. It baffles me why anyone would put a battery in their cruising boat that is not only incredibly expensive, but its availability in most areas is zilch. I paid $135 for my last 4d wet cell. When it goes out, I can probably replace it at any decent port, and if near a major port in the US, probably for the same $135. I plan for failure and how to work around it. Inability to replace systems, or rare and complicated systems without a working knowledge of them, is like playing with fire to me (as a cruiser).

Brian
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