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  #41  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Remember the old television show, “The Naked City”? Each episode would start out “There are eight million stories in the Naked City, this is one of them?” There must be at least that many definitions of the word “cruising”. We all have different concepts of the word and definitely different plans when we all “head out and turn left at the Gate” (the San Francisco vernacular for cruising). It would be most helpful if people would put their boat and location in the signature line so I can figure out if the responder is like me or not. When people don’t put anything in their signature or Bio, I tend to think of them as “keyboard captains” and heavily discount what they say.

My future cruising grounds will be the west coast of Mexico and the SOC where you can be a week or more away from reliable marine repair. I’ve been 500 miles offshore on the way to Hawaii on a boat that started to lose its steering gear and mid-Atlantic on a boat with generator problems. That, and a career in Aerospace, makes me sensitive to the repair/DC aspect. After all isn’t the definition of cruising “fixing your boat in exotic locations”?

Dad, interesting take on the Jeanneau. Usually that vitriol is reserved for Catalina’s. Unlike what I’m assuming is most people on this thread, I’m not independently wealthy so I do look for an affordable price point. After-all, I’m on my third Catalina. What attracted me to the 409 was its similarity to my C34 in terms of its layout (two stateroom, single aft head). I did not like the lack of a coaming aft of the steering wheels (almost lost a cushion overboard at a cocktail party). The single set of primaries and that mainsheet set up was a turn-off too. But all boats in my price range tend to be compromises. Can you give me an objective comparison with your 400? Sail California recently merged (acquired?) Cruising Yachts, so now besides their usual “Js”, they now are brokering Jeanneau. The line is so new to them that they even asked me if I wanted to test drive the 56, 409, and 389 out on the Bay with them. What kind of deal can I get from your local Florida man? (I am friends with my local brokerage owner).
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  #42  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Here are two simple observations

For me the generator is not necessary- save 500-600 lbs. at least

For me the second head is not necessary and you could get all that as increased storage space.
Dave,

Agree on both accounts, with a couple of stipulations.

I don;t think the generator is 5-600 lbs. I will have to look that up, but I think it is around 250. Remember, mine is only a MV 3.5 . I just measured the dimensions at: 18x14.5x18. That's basically the size of a carry-on suitcase! However, they are rediculously expensive. I think this one, installed in 2006, was $15,000. I understand they are more than that now.

Of the things I have and listed, like you Dave, the Generator would have been one of the first to go if I had to choose. However, I suspect it would be a short divorce. Before long, I think I would end up seeing a Honda 2000 on my stern!

We make roughly 300ah/day. THat is well more than we use. But it only takes one day or two of clouds in the winter before we are hurting... and that is with 840ah batt banks! Without hot water, we end up running a pretty solid 180 ah/day. With all the kids on the computers and printer (my kids homeschool, but have to use computers), we can exceed that number.

I will be able to give a much more accurate pic of AH used in about 6 weeks. Kids will be out of school and hot water will be less of an issue. Of course, then the water usage goes up, but that is another discussion.

On the second head: Yes. We agree. Or, you could use it for straight storage as many people do (sail locker, wet locker, etc). I have no choice. THis was one of the stipulations my wife wanted for kids (she doesn't want them using her head). I got no problem with that, but I agree with you.

Brian
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  #43  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

"I will say one thing though (about motoring): We try to avoid sailing when we will get bounced around too much. Sometimes you can avoid that and have a better voyage (not a better sail) by motoring."

Brian, by your definition of cruising (and mine intersects with yours on this point), why would you leave when you are going to get bounced around? Why would you leave when it's necessary to motorsail? And why would you need to "make time?" Personally, I like the idea of waiting for better weather; we're cruising, so what's the rush? My dear wife has a job, so she is bound by her schedule, but I'm not and neither, I presume, is a full time cruiser.
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  #44  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

"I have often considered investing in a trysail. I already have the track for it. I actually have a heavy made sail for a much smaller boat in storage in Washington. I wonder how that would work on my boat??"

I've never hoisted a trysail in anger. I wouldn't bother getting one. I like deep reefs in a sturdy main, and frankly the main is going to get pulled down pretty early in a serious blow. On the other hand, I really like a storm staysail hanked on to an inner forestay. With a boat that sails reasonably well, you can even claw to weather with only the staysail flying...and someone on the helm who can steer.
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  #45  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Remember the old television show, “The Naked City”? Each episode would start out “There are eight million stories in the Naked City, this is one of them?” There must be at least that many definitions of the word “cruising”. We all have different concepts of the word and definitely different plans when we all “head out and turn left at the Gate” (the San Francisco vernacular for cruising). It would be most helpful if people would put their boat and location in the signature line so I can figure out if the responder is like me or not. When people don’t put anything in their signature or Bio, I tend to think of them as “keyboard captains” and heavily discount what they say.

My future cruising grounds will be the west coast of Mexico and the SOC where you can be a week or more away from reliable marine repair. I’ve been 500 miles offshore on the way to Hawaii on a boat that started to lose its steering gear and mid-Atlantic on a boat with generator problems. That, and a career in Aerospace, makes me sensitive to the repair/DC aspect. After all isn’t the definition of cruising “fixing your boat in exotic locations”?

Dad, interesting take on the Jeanneau. Usually that vitriol is reserved for Catalina’s. Unlike what I’m assuming is most people on this thread, I’m not independently wealthy so I do look for an affordable price point. After-all, I’m on my third Catalina. What attracted me to the 409 was its similarity to my C34 in terms of its layout (two stateroom, single aft head). I did not like the lack of a coaming aft of the steering wheels (almost lost a cushion overboard at a cocktail party). The single set of primaries and that mainsheet set up was a turn-off too. But all boats in my price range tend to be compromises. Can you give me an objective comparison with your 400? Sail California recently merged (acquired?) Cruising Yachts, so now besides their usual “Js”, they now are brokering Jeanneau. The line is so new to them that they even asked me if I wanted to test drive the 56, 409, and 389 out on the Bay with them. What kind of deal can I get from your local Florida man? (I am friends with my local brokerage owner).
I will send you a PM on the brokerage company, etc, as I don't want to have anyone screaming at me. They would know me. I will put the rest here as others will want to chime in.

Hmmm.... I assume your budget is around 300k if you are looking at a 409? I would look into a used Sabre 426 or X, off the top of my head. The new bene seems to be a step up from the XX9 Jeauneaus, but just so you know, a good friend of mine (at the same marina, incidentally), lost her forestay on her maiden voyage on her brand new bene! If you get serious about those boats, I will let you speak with her. She is awesome... pretty gal, loves sailing, relatively young, has her own money, buys her own boats, captains license, singlehands. I wouldn't dare let her post on Sailnet in the Hersailnet Forum!! I couldn't keep up with all the posts! She's a rarity in this world. Her forestay chaffed through at the top and though I think the rigging seems a bit more heavy than the xx9, it is not vastly so. She has had a lot of problems, but in fairness, the factory rep came down and they have taken care of her. Another boat that people consider over the C400 is the Bene 423. My issue with that boat is that the stern sits in the water right at the HD joint, and they love collect barnacles there as it is impossible to paint. Also, I think every single 423 I have ever seen lists to starboard. Not much, but enough that it would irritate me.

You know a boat I do like and lost racing against was a Bene 40. The hull looks very similar to the C400... scarily so. To be fair to me, I was filled to the rim with crusiing stuff and he was fresh off the truck (now I am making excuses... I might be a racer yet!!). It might be a cheaper option than a new Bene. Nice sailing boat. My only issue with the Benes is I really do not like the hull-deck joints for reasons explained above.

If you can spend over 300, I would really be looking hard at a newer Sabre, a C445, or a newer X. I keep talking up the X's. I have not sailed them or against them. But they look sweet and I bet they are fast. I KNOW the Sabres are, for the most part. You will have to be comfortable with a cored hull though, which unless I am mistaken, all Sabres have. Others can chime in there. I have mixed feelings on a cored hull for cruising.

We had very dear friends that lived in the Sea of Cortez on their boat for five years. They Loved it George. They loved the people. One word of warning, which you may already know, is that you will have to get used to hot weather. Ventilation will be critical. THat often means, with all due respect to my HD lovers, a boat with a lot of hatches (a production boat). I would avoid anything with teak decks and would really focus my search on a boat where the V is the master. That rules out a C400. A C42 would fit the bill. You will have to buy one used. If you want to go that route, let me know as there are things in private I want to discuss too.

If under 200k, I would get a C400. I don't think there is a better boat. Of course, many will disagree with me. They think I am some kind of Catalina lover, which is not entirely true, incidentally. Everything they say about me and grilling is true - guilty as charged.

Regarding the J122 - I understand exactly what you are saying. I know because I have seen it and because I too am a cruiser. That is why we are having this discussion. The J122 is a rocking-cool boat. Man that thing is nimble. But no way I would cruise on it. Just not the right boat for the cruising we do... in my opinion. And in my opinion, it is not the right boat for the cruising most would do. But that is what we are discussing here, I think...

Brian
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  #46  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Paulo, have you been on that boat with the mast on?

Not to change the subject too quickly, but I found that boat a disaster. The rigging is WAY too small. The backstays are connected to a little half-eye fitting smaller than what I use to haul up my tender!! All the rigging seems vastly undersized for that boat, except for perfect weather conditions. The mast is inmast and the slot on that mast is very tight and the mast has no room for a crinkle. That thing is one blow from a hangup. The cabinetry down below is sparse and reminds me of Ikea. We actually saw the plastic wood-looking tape peeling off of the cabinet... on a new boat!! Cant wait to see it in a few years in the humidity. I don't think any of those cabinets are real wood. There are very few lockers and very little space for actually storing stuff. Go look back on my list and tell me where you are going to put that on the 409?!?? I found this pretty typical of all the XX9 series of Jeaunneau. Not one single sailor on our dock liked that boat. It became the joke as something was always going wrong on that boat. And don't they run the bilge pump through the Main engine exhaust? What about the coamings on that boat? Even without cockpit cushions, those coamings are only a few inches tall, especially closer to the wheel where others helping you sail will be sitting. Talk about a sore back after being at sea for a day. Weren't the seats behind he wheel also flat, so that on a heel, there is no way to sit erect?

Yeah its a light boat - lightly built. We had one sitting in our marina new for a long time. They couldn't sell it (new). I think Jeaunneau has made some awesome boats, but I personally found that boat lacking anything desirable. It was built for a pricepoint. I think the base price on it was 259,000. Pfft. Not in this lifetime.

George, if you are interested in that boat, let me give you the name of the brokers in Florida that have several. They would LOVE to sell it to you and will make you a deal you cannot believe. I will be happy to send you their number. Just PM me.

My opinions.

Brian
Uau!!!!

The base price here is 142 400 euros. That gives 149 070 dollars. The boat is made there and you have small tax how the hell the boat costs 259 000 dollars? I guess the rest of your comments go on the same sense that price exaggeration.
Sailboat Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 - Jeanneau Yard

The boat is a success here, where the competition is way more tight than on the US. Do you mean that the boat does not sell several times more than the Catalina 400? well, it seems that they don't make the Catalina 400 anymore.

Brian, there is a reason why a boat is taken out of production: It is because it is no more competitive on the market and there are not enough people that want to buy it to make profitable to continue producing it.

I don't like to say bad things about any boat. The market today is so competitive that there are no more bad boats anymore but you really exaggerate in what regards the Jeanneau 409. The Jeanneau is a mass production boat made to a price like the Catalina 400. The price of the Catalina is higher so it is normal to be slightly better finished but on the essentials the Jeanneau is a much better boat than the Catalina, in what regards design and built technologies.

The infusion is really a major improvement in what regards a quality and the Catalina 400 share the same hull with the MKI. We are talking of an almost 20 years old hull design by a, well, a NA that only does Catalinas, face to a new design by one of the better European designers. There are no possible comparison and the performance differences are evident.

Regarding the interior I like much more the one from the Jeanneau. Yes as I said the Catalina is better finished but even so, I would no have changed the Catalina interior for the one of the Jeanneau, neither I would have a a Catalina 400 instead of a a Jeanneu 409, even if they give me the Catalina 400 for the price of the Jeanneau and the Jeanneau is way less expensive.









There is a reason for the 409 to be a sail success and Catalina 400 not being built anymore.

I know that the boat that is made in Europe has a good quality for a mass produced boat and it is a very good sailing boat. The competition is so big here that is impossible for a boat to win the European boat of the year Contest without being a well made, very good sailboat an the Jeanneau was the family boat of the year in 2011.

But maybe the boat made in American is of an inferior quality? I had a look at some reviews on American sail magazines to see if your opinion was shared. After all you say so bad about the boat on so many things so evident to see that they cannot fail to notice it:

Sail magazine:

"So far sales are strong, and it looks like the 409 will maintain Jeanneau’s prominent position in this critical size range....

Finish quality is above average for a mass-production cruising boat....

The Sun Odyssey 409 promises to continue the success enjoyed by its predecessor by providing cruising families with a comfortable, versatile platform that looks sharp and sails well. The several sail-plan options, the different interior layouts, and two keel options make it possible to fine-tune the boat to your individual needs....

Under Sail:

In light to moderate conditions on Biscayne Bay (8 to 10 knots of wind, slowly building to 12) with the rig properly tweaked, the boat tracked well and I found the helm to be nicely balanced and forgiving. In lighter winds that morning we occasionally topped 5 knots sailing close-hauled, and I was able to leave the wheel unattended for long periods without the boat falling off. In somewhat stronger wind later on, we easily topped 6 knots on a close reach, and the helm stayed balanced, with no tendency to round up when the wheel was released.

In significantly stronger wind (15 knots, gusting to 20) during my earlier sail, I found the boat was reassuringly stiff, thanks in part to the hard chine in the topsides running aft from amidships..."


Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 | Sail Magazine



Cruising world:

"Immediately noticeable under sail is the refined thinking that Philippe Briand and the Jeanneau Design Team have invested in the deck layout. It wasn’t very long ago that BOTY judges were lamenting the way that work stations were scattered all across the cockpits of new boats, from the coamings to the cabintops, making it difficult to sail shorthanded. No more. On the 409, as well as on many other of this year’s fleet, we were happy to see sailhandling lines and winches laid out within easy reach of the helm....

“I was pleased with the performance of the boat,” said BOTY judge Ed Sherman, having sailed at 6.1 knots into 10 knots of true wind. A 40-horse Yanmar provided plenty of power to push the 409 along at 7.5 knots. In terms of noise under power, the boat was smack-dab in the middle of the fleet: 88 decibels at 2,600 rpm; 91 decibels at 3,000 rpm..

...Like other Jeanneaus, the interior of the 409 is a model of flexibility.

After a thorough inspection, it was clear to all of us that they were thinking about a lot of things."


Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Sailboat Review | Cruising World

On the Bluewater sailing magazine I could only find a test on the 41DS, the sister boat that shares the same hull and quality of finish and interior:

"The new deck saloon design embraces simple cruising elegance while offering innovative sailing systems...

Under power, the 41DS handles easily and well. With a sail drive powered by the standard 40hp diesel, the prop is well positioned to keep water pressure on the rudder, thus even at slow speeds the boat turns with assurance. Straight ahead, the boat will motor at 6.5 knots at a conservative 2000 rpms, yet will climb to her theoretical hull speed of 8.04 knots without much bother at 2800 rpms—just short of the maximum we noted given the fixed three bladed prop...

The 41DS showed itself to be a handy cruiser that motors well and maneuvers easily in tight quarters and a fine sailing design that is intended to make performance cruising easier than ever. This boat can certainly be handled by a couple and is also a cinch for those who sail alone....

Philippe Briand did the basic hull design work when he drew the lines for the Jeanneau 409. The 41DS uses the same hull, keel and rudder as the 409 but has been given an entirely different deck and interior. The 409 was one of the most successful new designs in Jeanneau’s line in recent years and has earned the reputation of being a quick and capable racer-cruiser....

The fit and finish of the new generation of Jeanneaus continues to impress with attention to detail and the depth of the seamanship that informs decisions about where to put things and how to build them—enough to make any owner proud...

Down below, the somewhat traditional interior (by modern Euro standards) will appeal to the American market, as will the overall quality of the craftsmanship that goes into the boat.

Like the 409 in the racer-cruiser slot of the market, the new 41DS promises to offer her owners a ton of great cruising at a price that is a very good value both today and in the future, when you may want to move up to a larger boat."


BLUE WATER BOATS | JEANNEAU SUN ODYSSEY 41DS | BLUE WATER SAILING MAGAZINE | CRUISING, SAILING, BOAT REVIEWS, GEAR, CHARTERING | 888.800.SAIL

Brian it seems that the fact that you own a Catalina and seem to be in love with it makes you see defects and shortcomings where professional testers (that test a compare douzens of boats) find nothing wrong, and I am not talking only about US testers boat about all those European magazines testers had choose this boat as European family boat on the year he come to the market.

Nobody found as you say: "I found that boat a disaster. The rigging is WAY too small. The backstays are connected to a little half-eye fitting smaller than what I use to haul up my tender!! All the rigging seems vastly undersized for that boat, except for perfect weather conditions. The cabinetry down below is sparse and reminds me of Ikea. We actually saw the plastic wood-looking tape peeling off of the cabinet."

The general consensus in what regard the finish and the interior was:

" Finish quality is above average for a mass-production cruising boat..The several sail-plan options, the different interior layouts, and two keel options make it possible to fine-tune the boat to your individual needs....The fit and finish of the new generation of Jeanneaus continues to impress with attention to detail and the depth of the seamanship that informs decisions about where to put things and how to build them—enough to make any owner proud""

I pretty much agree with what they say, that is about what I have heard by all that professionally reviewed and test sailed the boat and confirms my personal impressions on the boat.

Regards

Paulo
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  #47  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Uau!!!!

The base price here is 142 400 euros. That gives 149 070 dollars. The boat is made there and you have small tax how the hell the boat costs 259 000 dollars? I guess the rest of your comments go on the same sense that price exaggeration.
Sailboat Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 - Jeanneau Yard

The boat is a success here, where the competition is way more tight than on the US. Do you mean that the boat does not sell several times more than the Catalina 400? well, it seems that they don't make the Catalina 400 anymore.

Brian, there is a reason why a boat is taken out of production: It is because it is no more competitive on the market and there are not enough people that want to buy it to make profitable to continue producing it.

I don't like to say bad things about any boat. The market today is so competitive that there are no more bad boats anymore but you really exaggerate in what regards the Jeanneau 409. The Jeanneau is a mass production boat made to a price like the Catalina 400. The price of the Catalina is higher so it is normal to be slightly better finished but on the essentials the Jeanneau is a much better boat than the Catalina, in what regards design and built technologies.

The infusion is really a major improvement in what regards a quality and the Catalina 400 share the same hull with the MKI. We are talking of an almost 20 years old hull design by a, well, a NA that only does Catalinas, face to a new design by one of the better European designers. There are no possible comparison and the performance differences are evident.

Regarding the interior I like much more the one from the Jeanneau. Yes as I said the Catalina is better finished but even so, I would no have changed the Catalina interior for the one of the Jeanneau, neither I would have a a Catalina 400 instead of a a Jeanneu 409, even if they give me the Catalina 400 for the price of the Jeanneau and the Jeanneau is way less expensive.





There is a reason for the 409 to be a sail success and Catalina 400 not being built anymore.

I know that the boat that is made in Europe has a good quality for a mass produced boat and it is a very good sailing boat. The competition is so big here that is impossible for a boat to win the European boat of the year Contest without being a well made, very good sailboat an the Jeanneau was the family boat of the year in 2011.

But maybe the boat made in American is of an inferior quality? I had a look at some reviews on American sail magazines to see if your opinion was shared. After all you say so bad about the boat on so many things so evident to see that they cannot fail to notice it:

Sail magazine:

"So far sales are strong, and it looks like the 409 will maintain Jeanneau’s prominent position in this critical size range....

Finish quality is above average for a mass-production cruising boat....

The Sun Odyssey 409 promises to continue the success enjoyed by its predecessor by providing cruising families with a comfortable, versatile platform that looks sharp and sails well. The several sail-plan options, the different interior layouts, and two keel options make it possible to fine-tune the boat to your individual needs....

Under Sail:

In light to moderate conditions on Biscayne Bay (8 to 10 knots of wind, slowly building to 12) with the rig properly tweaked, the boat tracked well and I found the helm to be nicely balanced and forgiving. In lighter winds that morning we occasionally topped 5 knots sailing close-hauled, and I was able to leave the wheel unattended for long periods without the boat falling off. In somewhat stronger wind later on, we easily topped 6 knots on a close reach, and the helm stayed balanced, with no tendency to round up when the wheel was released.

In significantly stronger wind (15 knots, gusting to 20) during my earlier sail, I found the boat was reassuringly stiff, thanks in part to the hard chine in the topsides running aft from amidships..."


Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 | Sail Magazine



Cruising world:

"Immediately noticeable under sail is the refined thinking that Philippe Briand and the Jeanneau Design Team have invested in the deck layout. It wasn’t very long ago that BOTY judges were lamenting the way that work stations were scattered all across the cockpits of new boats, from the coamings to the cabintops, making it difficult to sail shorthanded. No more. On the 409, as well as on many other of this year’s fleet, we were happy to see sailhandling lines and winches laid out within easy reach of the helm....

“I was pleased with the performance of the boat,” said BOTY judge Ed Sherman, having sailed at 6.1 knots into 10 knots of true wind. A 40-horse Yanmar provided plenty of power to push the 409 along at 7.5 knots. In terms of noise under power, the boat was smack-dab in the middle of the fleet: 88 decibels at 2,600 rpm; 91 decibels at 3,000 rpm..

...Like other Jeanneaus, the interior of the 409 is a model of flexibility.

After a thorough inspection, it was clear to all of us that they were thinking about a lot of things."


Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Sailboat Review | Cruising World

On the Bluewater sailing magazine I could only find a test on the 41DS, the sister boat that shares the same hull and quality of finish and interior:

"The new deck saloon design embraces simple cruising elegance while offering innovative sailing systems...

Under power, the 41DS handles easily and well. With a sail drive powered by the standard 40hp diesel, the prop is well positioned to keep water pressure on the rudder, thus even at slow speeds the boat turns with assurance. Straight ahead, the boat will motor at 6.5 knots at a conservative 2000 rpms, yet will climb to her theoretical hull speed of 8.04 knots without much bother at 2800 rpms—just short of the maximum we noted given the fixed three bladed prop...

The 41DS showed itself to be a handy cruiser that motors well and maneuvers easily in tight quarters and a fine sailing design that is intended to make performance cruising easier than ever. This boat can certainly be handled by a couple and is also a cinch for those who sail alone....

Philippe Briand did the basic hull design work when he drew the lines for the Jeanneau 409. The 41DS uses the same hull, keel and rudder as the 409 but has been given an entirely different deck and interior. The 409 was one of the most successful new designs in Jeanneau’s line in recent years and has earned the reputation of being a quick and capable racer-cruiser....

The fit and finish of the new generation of Jeanneaus continues to impress with attention to detail and the depth of the seamanship that informs decisions about where to put things and how to build them—enough to make any owner proud...

Down below, the somewhat traditional interior (by modern Euro standards) will appeal to the American market, as will the overall quality of the craftsmanship that goes into the boat.

Like the 409 in the racer-cruiser slot of the market, the new 41DS promises to offer her owners a ton of great cruising at a price that is a very good value both today and in the future, when you may want to move up to a larger boat."


BLUE WATER BOATS | JEANNEAU SUN ODYSSEY 41DS | BLUE WATER SAILING MAGAZINE | CRUISING, SAILING, BOAT REVIEWS, GEAR, CHARTERING | 888.800.SAIL

Brian it seems that the fact that you own a Catalina and seem to be in love with it makes you see defects and shortcomings where professional testers (that test a compare douzens of boats) find nothing wrong, and I am not talking only about US testers boat about all those European magazines testers had choose this boat as European family boat on the year he come to the market.

Nobody found as you say: "I found that boat a disaster. The rigging is WAY too small. The backstays are connected to a little half-eye fitting smaller than what I use to haul up my tender!! All the rigging seems vastly undersized for that boat, except for perfect weather conditions. The cabinetry down below is sparse and reminds me of Ikea. We actually saw the plastic wood-looking tape peeling off of the cabinet."

The general consensus in what regard the finish and the interior was:

" Finish quality is above average for a mass-production cruising boat..The several sail-plan options, the different interior layouts, and two keel options make it possible to fine-tune the boat to your individual needs....The fit and finish of the new generation of Jeanneaus continues to impress with attention to detail and the depth of the seamanship that informs decisions about where to put things and how to build them—enough to make any owner proud""

I pretty much agree with what they say, that is about what I have heard by all that professionally reviewed and test sailed the boat and confirms my personal impressions on the boat.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,

I did not mean to upset you on the boat. I will send you a PM to explain my opinions, and we can decide where to go from there and what should or should not be posted on this thread.

Brian
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Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

well.. if I had the 20mil.. and the 2 million a year to maintain it.

Then there is the J class...


Oh.. what would a crew of 20-30 yr old men cost?
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Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Ahhh.... finally the discussion is getting fun.

Ok, let's talk about what I carry on my boat. I will try and get as many things as I can. I am sure to leave some stuff out. Some of my stuff is kid oriented. No way around that and I accept all criticism from it as valid from those who will not take guests or kids. However, let me share some of these things, you decide what you would or wouldn't want, then lets talk about the space it takes up.



Tools:

I won't bother listing them all, though I have them all listed out for my book. Every (Every!) tool on my list has been used. If it doesn't get used it gets off. In fact, I have bought some tools that double over - like the quick wrenches that accept multiple sizes or converters to reduce the sockets I have to carry. All in all, even after all my pruning, I could only get my tools down to a 24x18x50. That is basically 3/4 of the size of a settee on a typical sized 40 foot boat.

Food:

The bilge takes up most of our food. It is filled with bottled water (and distilled... important for those with wets), can food, flour, rice, sugar, a pressure cooker, a cast iron skillet, dog food, a vacuseal and extra bags. This takes up a comparable size of our settee on the starboard side. We have some room left over except when we fully provision. Everything in there gets used and are essential for cruising for us.

Spare parts:

I carry an extra water pump, extra bilge pump, general diaphragm pump, a spare oil filter, a spare secondary fuel filter, two spare racor filters, a spare belt, a variety of screws and bolts of different sizes, new plugs and impeller for OB, impellers for Gen and Main, strainer and spare baskets. There are some other odds and ends I am sure I missed. THis takes up over a 30x30x30 area.

Detergents and oil:

We carry extra dish soap, boat soap, main oil, gear case oil, and a variety of other basic chemicals that are constantly used. This takes up over a 30x30x30 area.

Galley items:

Zip lock baggies, foil, saran wrap, trash bags, and cleansers under the sink. THat takes up a 12x30x30 area. On either side of the stove are 8 settings of plates and bowls, two skillets, a toaster, and a set of nesting cookware (pots), a collapsible strainer, two silicon collapsible mixing bowls, a container for cereal, a pitcher, a platter, and a set of disposable food containers (which we don't dispose of as we use for leftovers). THat takes up a 59x12x16 area.

In the china cabinet, we keep powdered gartorade and powdered Koolaid and a few cook books. We also keep two china wine glasses, four plastic goblets, two small crystal glasses, four coffee mugs, and six stackable plastic glasses. This takes up a 28x24x12 area. Above this on a 28x12x10 area we keep tortillas and bread.

Our dry storage is 28x18x30. It is filled food, ranging from cereal, lots of pastas, oats, our spare cooking oils, etc.

Our microwave takes up 19x18x30.

Beside the microwave, in two drawers are a 10 place setting of spoons, knives, and forks, including two large serving spoons, spatulas, thongs, and various items used in the galley for cooking. I can be more specific, but I doubt anyone would cut any of these items. This takes up 10x16x17.

Trash can is 13g, and takes up 10x12x20 in the cabinet.

Sink is a double sink, 13x24x9.

Oven and stove are three burner. It is 24x24x26.

Over the sink is the spice rack. It is 28x20x14. It also holds olive oils, spare spices, and 6 cup coffee maker.

Nav Station:

Nav station is 34x36x42. it holds a variety of maps and cruising guides, the electrical panel, secondary chartplotter, secondary repeater, VHF, Water/fuel/waste readouts, radio, Genset panel, battery charger/inverter panel, pencils and paper and other small office type things. THis nav station is independent of the salon settees, and has its own seat. Inside it also has the battery charger/inverter.

Salon:

We have four cabinets in our salon, each approximately 22x11x24. THey are stuffed with the following: paper towels (our nemesis, incidentally), napkins and Kleenex, large cruising guides like Explorer charts for the Bahamas, cameras, spot light, clip on fan. One cabinet is filled with the Play Station and WII for the kids. THe other is filled with movies and games of all types (board games, card games, etc).

Between the cabinets are decorations like plastic flowers. We also keep our books there, though these are few now, thanks to the Kindles.

The TV is wall mount and does not take up any living space.

The entire rest of the salon is taken up with tankage, including holding and diesel.

Heads:

We have two heads. The forward head is the kids head, but we also use it for storage. It is 40x37x76. It holds most of our medical supplies, emergency kits, spare toilet paper and head chemicals, bathroom cleansers, spare cosmetics, two tv trays mounted the wall.

The aft head has a separate shower. All of us shower there. Including the shower, it is 36x64x75.

State Rooms:

We have two staterooms. THe kids is the V berth. It measure at 86x77x108, but remember half of that disappears in the V. It holds all of their clothes (not much clothes, honestly, as we are in the south, maybe a weeks worth of changes), their books and school supplies, and toys. It does have a small seat in it for them to sit at.

Our stateroom is large. It is 12'x11'x78". Remember that part of that is eaten up with the cockpit floor, but it has a queen berth and LOTS of storage. We use one of the cabinets as a dirty clothes cabinet, one cabinet to store various files and safety gear (ditch bag stuff), clothes, my guitar and a small keyboard, a fan, and a small-flat radio. It has two settees in it which store foul weather gear. We use part of the space to secure our computers when under way.

Outside:

Outside we have various items which take up real estate. They are as follows:

6 Person Offshore Liferaft.
1- Dive Tank.
1- 20 lb grill tank.
1- foldable bike.
1 foldable cart.
2 - kayaks which are only mounted when underway on the lifelines.
2- spare 5 g diesel cans
2 - spare 5g gas cans.
2 - spare 5 g water cans.

10'2" tender hangs on davits.

6- Kyocera 130W panels. They have their own, independent arch.

Seat Cushions.

A world-class-seasoned grill.

Each lazarette contains:

Snorkel gear for 4.
1 - BC and Regulator (and soon to be a spear gun and HI Sling)
2 wet suits
Covers for boat when at anchor for shading
A/C Compressor
Diesel Generator
Life Jackets
Extra Dock lines and Jack Lines and harnesses.
2.5G Wet Dry Vac.
AB Fridge Compressor
2 - 10lb Propane tanks for galley.

DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I am sure to have missed a few odds and ends here. It was not intentionally. But that is everything in my boat within reason. So lets now start talking about what YOU would cut. If reasonable, we can start removing these items and calculating the savings in space and potential weight.

I have already divulged that some stuff I carry is kid related. No getting around that. I understand that some of that could be used for other things for those that do not have kids. But what is important to see here is that the VAST majority of this space is things that every one of you would likely take too if cruising. The space killers are not kid related, in general, and shared as boat items.

Also, when you start looking at all these things, now start thinking about where you put these on a J122... a First, or many other boats of similar design. Assuming they have not used a shrink-ray, the space these items take up is the space they take up. No negotiation there. So, where do you put it? I have pulled the boards on these boats, and I am telling you it doesn't fit! So what you do is you start shoving it into the V berth, the quarter berth. You stick it in crannies and crevices, many of these items well above waterline which should not be and screws up the balance of the boat. Not to mention, what did the weight of these items do to this boat? The same boat that was designed at a low displacement is now over-weighted and what effect has that had on its stability and speed?

I am not saying you cannot MAKE these boats work. I am making the argument that it will come at a considerable tradeoff, and the very reason you bought that boat might be compromised.

I am NO minimalist. Not at all. But I am not over the edge either, IMHO. Thre are pleasure things like the guitar and keyboard and dive gear that could be cut easily. But they are also all used and serve a purpose on this boat. What do you cut? Take a look around. These are REAL measurements, on a boat often called a dockaminium, a fat cruiser, extravagant, and all the other acronyms I get thrown toward me. When I go on other peoples boats that are cruising, I feel like I am Spartan, so now you see where I am coming from.

Brian
This shows the naivety of assuming that a cruising hull can be "Light Displacement," and a hull designed to sail light can perform as a stripped out racer, and not be far below the lines she is designed for.
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Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Dave,

Agree on both accounts, with a couple of stipulations.

I don;t think the generator is 5-600 lbs. I will have to look that up, but I think it is around 250. Remember, mine is only a MV 3.5 . I just measured the dimensions at: 18x14.5x18. That's basically the size of a carry-on suitcase! However, they are rediculously expensive. I think this one, installed in 2006, was $15,000. I understand they are more than that now.

Of the things I have and listed, like you Dave, the Generator would have been one of the first to go if I had to choose. However, I suspect it would be a short divorce. Before long, I think I would end up seeing a Honda 2000 on my stern!

We make roughly 300ah/day. THat is well more than we use. But it only takes one day or two of clouds in the winter before we are hurting... and that is with 840ah batt banks! Without hot water, we end up running a pretty solid 180 ah/day. With all the kids on the computers and printer (my kids homeschool, but have to use computers), we can exceed that number.

I will be able to give a much more accurate pic of AH used in about 6 weeks. Kids will be out of school and hot water will be less of an issue. Of course, then the water usage goes up, but that is another discussion.

On the second head: Yes. We agree. Or, you could use it for straight storage as many people do (sail locker, wet locker, etc). I have no choice. THis was one of the stipulations my wife wanted for kids (she doesn't want them using her head). I got no problem with that, but I agree with you.

Brian
The average couple is a cruiser so having the solar and wind generator should be enough with the large battery bank. Less hot water needed also therefore less storage. Less water needed therefore less storage.

You have to also add weight in fuel, pumps, shield etc. for the generator weight not just the generator.
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