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  #51  
Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

PCP,

That 409 is an ugly duckling like an IKEA catalog.

What I remember about checking out Jenneau is a very irritating step down towards the bow (all models) and clearly I am not a fan of European interior design.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I won't quote Paulo,s long post but....

Does anyone remember any sailing magazine EVER saying much bad things about a boat they have tested? They may point out one or two minor areas that "could be improved"...

why is that one might wonder? Maybe because of the mighty advertising $$$$ ?
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Paulo,

I did not mean to upset you on the boat. I will send you a PM to explain my opinions, and we can decide where to go from there and what should or should not be posted on this thread.

Brian
I think I got the pictures right now

The Catalina 400 seems to me as having a better galley, even if those two rows of cabinets on the Jeanneau gives a lot of practical storage space, but in what regards the saloon the Jeanneau has a bigger one and one that I like more.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsContent View Post
PCP,

That 409 is an ugly duckling like an IKEA catalog.

What I remember about checking out Jenneau is a very irritating step down towards the bow (all models) and clearly I am not a fan of European interior design.
Listen, I am not bashing the Catalina 400 that is a good sailing boat. Brian is the one that was bashing the Jeanneau 409, that is also a good boat. What I said was that I liked more the interior of the 409 and that the hull design of the Catalina is an older design with a worse performance.

Regarding the interior it is a question of personal taste and the Catalina has certainly a great galley.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 04-18-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Must be why Chevy builds cars and trucks, same as ford, same as dodge.......Mercedes etc.......boats are similar, there is not ONE boat model or brand that will suffice for everyone!

Frankly, I prefer my Jeanneau over a catalina of the same vintage. One it is typically 20-30 secs a mile faster in handicap. Even a Cat 30 which is 2' longer than me, I am dang near on par in all measures as a C28mkII! The interior look and feel is different between the two! Even for a mid 80's model and design.

While I and many other Jeanneau affecionado's do not like the newer interior wood look, only so much one can do about it, when many manufactures are trying to stretch som resources. Teak being one of them, so they ar grinding it up, making it sorta look real with shavings. which can stretch a given lb of teak wood farther. ALso allowing the cost to stay lower! Whether this is good or bad.....not going to say one way or the other, as I think I have already said the why. No different than iron vs lead keels. Lead is 10-20 times as expensive as iron lb for lb. 4000 lbs of lead vs iron.......adds up to $20K just in metal alone! Saving the buyer some money in the beginning. Be it good or bad, again, up to you to decide!

As far as a type of boat.....a race cruiser which Jeanneau is NOT currently advertised as, the old Sun Fast models were, the Sun Odessey models have all mostly been cruise /race to currently "Performance Cruisers". Catalina gets advertised as a cruiser! Cruiser vs performance cruiser means slower! just as cruise/race will be faster than aperf cruiser, but slower than a race/cruiser or racer! WIth in a given relm of boat, a slow race cruise may be slower than a fast cruise/racer! or have a nicer interior, but that manufacture chooses to sell as a race/cruise vs cruise/racer!

WOuld I buy a catalina.....wife has found one or two she likes, generally speaking, she goes in, says yuck, walks out. Brians wife does this with jeanneaus. Both purr in the opposite boat. Only really matters to brian and I as we are married to these women. Otherwise, frankly it really does not matter!

My boat I would like to have a shower,much less 2 showers! A generator? not likely....

J105's were basically designed to race, but can cruise. Head room is 5'8", just taller than the ave female! Designer assumes these buyer owners will spend every other night or so in a B&B, the rest at anchor maybe, or at a dock! Cruising to some!

What your style of cruising is, will depend upon the type of boat you own!\

Marty
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Old 04-18-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
...
As far as a type of boat.....a race cruiser which Jeanneau is NOT currently advertised as, the old Sun Fast models were, the Sun Odessey models have all mostly been cruise /race to currently "Performance Cruisers". Catalina gets advertised as a cruiser! Cruiser vs performance cruiser means slower! just as cruise/race will be faster than aperf cruiser, but slower than a race/cruiser or racer! WIth in a given relm of boat, a slow race cruise may be slower than a fast cruise/racer! or have a nicer interior, but that manufacture chooses to sell as a race/cruise vs cruise/racer!
..
Just to make this clear. In Europe a performance cruiser is a denomination for all boats that can cruise in a fast way, boats that are fun to sail are meant for the ones that want to have fun sailing and have all controls that allow a perfect control of sail shape like a big traveler car on the back of the boat, 4 winches on the cockpit (or a direct main and two winches), fractional rig, back-stay adjuster and so on.

Some of these boats are also designed taking racing in mind, in what regards handicaps and the needs of space for a crew to sail the boat and they are called also cruiser-racers, some are just not designed taking that in consideration, they are designed just to go fast solo, or with a reduced crew and they are not called cruiser-racers, just performance cruisers. All cruiser racers are performance cruisers but not all performance cruisers are cruiser racers.

Some examples of the last ones: The Pogo cruising boats, the JPK 38, the Cigale and many others.

Every sailboat can be used for racing. What makes a cruiser racer is to have been designed thinking specifically in a dual function and purpose.

The Jeanneau 409 is not a cruiser racer and even if some for marketing purposes call it a performance cruiser it is not. It is a fast cruiser and has won the European boat of the year contest in the class of Family cruisers, not performance cruisers. That one was won that year by the Elan 350.

For the ones that don't know the European boat of the year contest is very different from contests of a boat of the year chose by a single saol magazine. They are chosen by testers from many European magazines, one for each country and as many countries have boats on the contest while others have not and that kind of balances the odds in what regards favoritism. In that year the Jeanneau 409 beat several other nominated (and not all boats are nominated, only the best): the Bavaria Cruiser 45, the Bénéteau Océanis 58, the Comet 26 and the Hanse 445.

At that time on the interesting boat thread I posted the positive and negative comments of all those testers from Yachting World, Fare Vela, Waterkampion, Batnytt, Yacht Revue, Seilas, Yate, Voile Magazine, Yacht, Badnyt and Marina.ch.

POSITIVE:

This Philippe Briand designed cruiser has many modern design features such as plumb ends, hull chines, an aft cockpit and twin wheels, but it is her accommodation that says more about what really lies at the heart of her design.

Her modest and elegantly fitted teak or oak interior is the first thing to grab your attention. While subtle in colour, the horizontal grain might not be a major feature, but it sets the scene for a boat that challenges the norm. ....

The message is clear, Jeanneau are heading back to their roots with a good looking, solidly built boat that has an eye on the future as well.

... Just in front of each of the wheels lies a Harken 50.2 self tailing winch onto which the mainsheet and genoa sheets are led ensuring the primary controls are close to hand for the helmsman, while also allowing the crew can operate them easily as well.
...At a starting price of €128,740 she is very good value for money for a well built boat that has looks that will last.

The 409 does not only have a very elegant appearance. She also features clever details on and below decks. The option of different headsails is a big plus. And the accomodation is both warm and roomy - something that doesn't always go together well. In fact, even though she is fairly priced she feels rather rich and very comfortable.

The more complete boat of the category, she looks more luxurious and refined than her class. She seems to be back to the Jeanneau best times, when they were realized in medium quality and far from cusins Beneteau.

+ very well designed
+ good deck solutions, many details well resolved
+ functional interior layouts
+ well done interior finishing, quality materials
+ good value for money

Those guys from Jeanneau are very clever : you can hardly beat them in term of value for money. You have lots and lots of space, the boat is rather good under sail and you feel you are on a special boat. Still, it is a mass production boat and the price is very good but you really enjoy living aboard and nothing reminds you of anything « low price ». Well done.

You feel the experience of the yard, when you are sailing the boat: good upwind performance and comfortable trim options, when you have choosen the electric sheetwinshes. Other fine features:
- Variable sailplan: especially the possibility to use three different foresails
- Ambiance under deck: The interior is made with brain and charm; well done woodwork with good working fittings; multifunctional navigation place and salon table.

I you want a boats to give good vibrations, Sun Odyssey 409 is a splendid example. It combines trendright chines, big beam aft with a coachroof ending in "shoulders". If EYOTY was a beautycontest, 409 would have won it too.
Besides having Philippe Briand onboard again, Jeannau has included some new neat features for relaxed sailing, like selftacking jib, low integrated jibtrack on the coachroof, sheets led under a deckcover to electric winches in the cockpit, This demonstrates fresh thinking.
....
Inside Sun Odyssey 409 collects even more points with inviting space, clever layout with one or two aftcabins and toilets, and a genious charttable doubling as bar.

Finishwise the 409 feels de luxe, with leatherhandles, leathercovered charttable, rounded fronts.

Under sail the boat balances a family´s needs, enough sailarea for good speed in light air and solid ruddergrip with lots of control in high winds. Even more familyplus is proper ballastratio for comfortable ride when wind picks up.

Overall Sun Odyssey 409 represents a new level on family cruising in design, sailing, inside volume, finish and value for money.

Better by design: Jeanneau have managed to make an affordable family cruiser witch looks luxurious, but not on the price tag. ...

Jeanneau has the skill to keep things simple and functional. The 409 feels like a bigger boat especially down below.
...And as opposed to the Xc where you get a lot of boat for a lot of money the Jeanneau gives just a lot of boat for the money.





NEGATIVE:

Where the layout struggles a little is in the friction of the sheet systems and in winches that are a bit underpowered fro the task.

A bit stiff on the helm, maybe. And with a bit too much friction in the rope arrangement that leads all aft.

- not fast or funny under sail, heavy at the helm.

You could argue that it feels a bit heavy and numb on the wheel but never the less I'm quite certain that Jeanneau targets their audience close to spot on.



Regarding the American market it is a bit more confusing. Brian and many call race boats to performance cruisers, some magazines call performance cruisers to relatively fast cruisers (I have seen Tartans to be called performance cruisers, as well the Jeanneau 409) so it is all very confusing. I guess that because on the American market there are much less boats than on the European market the distinctions are more difficult to make since there are not many boats on each class and there is not a clear distinction among them.

On American market you can also find still in production boats basically designed 20 years ago or more and that puts what one consider the performance of a mainstream cruiser more on the slow side, compared with European patterns.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-18-2013 at 08:18 AM.
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  #57  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo,

Jeanneau could also be marketing the NA market different than say the european market, in that here, ie NA, Jeanneau is using the term performace cruiser, where as in Europe, they do not fall into that catagory. So in the end, even tho I am using that term, it is correct for here, but not over there!

Marty
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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.... She is awesome... pretty gal, loves sailing, relatively young, has her own money, buys her own boats, captains license, singlehands. I wouldn't dare let her post on Sailnet in the Hersailnet Forum!! I couldn't keep up with all the posts! She's a rarity in this world....

Brian
Well not to change the subject - again - but I am single. Not in the market for a $300K boat, but I could be persuaded to crew for an "awesome" female captain of same....
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Paulo,

Jeanneau could also be marketing the NA market different than say the european market, in that here, ie NA, Jeanneau is using the term performace cruiser, where as in Europe, they do not fall into that catagory. So in the end, even tho I am using that term, it is correct for here, but not over there!

Marty
That's about what I was sayng

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Paulo,

I watched the video. I completely understand we have different tastes in boats. But I have some questions.

1) How would that boat, with hard chimes, handle a steep sea with a short period? Even my boat is tough in those conditions. I was on a Hunter with a flat bottom and it sounded like a PDQ going into those waves: Bang! Bang! Bang! Do you think that boat would do that? Would you buy a boat with hard chimes like that for cruising?

2) Of course, this is all from pictures, but I don't remember seeing any cabinetry on the walls. That means much of the storage has to go into the settees. Did they put all the tankage below the floorboards? If not, wouldn't that kill the storage on that boat?

3) Wouldn't you prefer more wood? Nothing to do with the performace of the boat, but it didn't seem very warm.

4) Would you have a problem not having a place to put your feet for long distance voyaging? For example, when on the same tack for a long period of time, we stretch our feet across to the foot hold between the two settees on the table. THis was one of the issues I had with the Blue Jacket. Without that, you are forced to sit on the highside - exactly as they are showing in the video. Now that isn't a problem for a day sail, but could you personally do that for a long period of time? Wouldn't your butt fall asleep? Wouldn't your back get sore. My issue with many of the new boats coming out (production boats primarily) is the rediculous coaming in the cockpit and the flat seats behind the wheel. I realize they are trying to maximize the space below, but in doing so, have they made a less comfortable boat for long distance sailing?

5) My boat is 41'6", and 13'6 wide. That boat is 39 long, and 14.5 wide. And you call my boat fat!!! (Snicker)

6) I like the storage area which they are using as a line locker. I really wish I had that on my boat. I said before that one of the failures of many modern boats is the crappy lazarettes.

7) What do you think that boat makes good in 15-20kts sustained? What if she were loaded down with a couple two-three thousand of pounds of gear? How would that change the charachteristics of that boat? Since it is devoid of any real cabinetry, where would you put things that you have to get to often and quickly, like spot lights, paper charts, paper towels, flour, sugar, coffee, large pots and pans like a pressure cooker, etc? If you think about the things, even in a house, that you use on a daily basis, don't you want them easily accessible? We end up having to put a lot of stuff in our settees, and having to pull the cushions and boards to get to them and mangle through all the stuff is a PITA. Would you agree?

8) I agree with you that many of the production boats stink at storage. Large salons, terrible handholds, cruddy storage. I have LONG been screaming about that. They make these huge salons that look great in the boat shows, but when you have to load it up, there are very few cabinets. I cannot tell you the number of boats I have been on that don't even have fiddleboards! So in general I agree with your statement, though it depends on the boat (both ways). I will tell you that my boat, for instance, has a nice amount of cabinetry on it... and I still had to add more. Other boats that come at a higher price point, like you were mentioning, already have that.

Its a neat looking boat. Pretty lines. Kinda pricey though... I saw the older models, and 2008 at that, were over a quarter million US on yahctworld. I wonder what that boat costs new. Do you know? Just curious.

Brian

PS A Catalina 400, though I think has many good qualities, is NOT my ideal cruising boat. I hope you don't think it is. I like many things about it, hate some things, but in general have made it work. There are definitely better boats that I like better... but $$$$!!! I have not sailed one, but I really like the looks of the X yachts. I have suggested that to many people (and Sabres and a couple of others) that have a larger budget than I do. But that is why I am cruising now with a boat I make work instead of working at an office to have my perfect boat sitting at the marina!!! I just remind myself that both me and the guy next to me on the Taswell 49 has the same view. His is just a lot more quiet (no kids). HEHE!

PPS Anyone ever see Romancing the Stone? The boat in that movie is in our marina. Kinda cool.
Brian, I will discuss not this here but I would say that I consider that boat to be a better voyage boat than the Catalina or any other main market mass produced boat. Not my opinion only it is a consensual opinion in Europe. The boat was designed for that and perfected along many years.

The boat as designed with long range voyage in mind having as basis the more adapted hull boats forms to solo sailing, particularly in the trade winds that is where everybody travels, at least while sailing. That is pretty evident to me and the advantages are too many to list, at least in what regards my available time. The boat is extensively used for that and it is as popular for that as the several brands of aluminium boats. It is one of the very few brands that are not shrinking with the crisis but growing. That shows the interest of the ones that like voyaging for the concept.

In fact I had test sailed one (previous model) because that was really one of the boats that I was considering and in what regards storage and interior space my wife's favorite (with the Southerly 42).

I had in fact to struggle with her to choose another boat. The boast is fast and it is a performance voyage boat but it was not nervous enough for me. I mean it did not deliver that crisp feeling that a sports car deliver and that make driving or sailing truly enjoyable for me. That was the same reason why I did not consider the Jeanneau 409 (the faster performance version).

Saying all that, I would say that it would not be the ideal boat for someone that would chose to circumnavigate or voyage the wrong way, I mean against the preponderant winds but then, neither the Catalina.

Regarding going upwind with waves, both your boat and the RM are not a model of comfort but I doubt that boat would be worse than yours. What counts there is how fine are the entries and the tridimensional shape of the hull, specially the bow and frontal part. The RM even if it has a fat ass has finer entries than the Catalina :





The boat foot print, I mean will also be much smaller on the RM. These type of boats, like the shape of them or not, have a diagonal thin foot print while sailing. Looking at the footprint we would say that we are talking about a narrow boat.

Regarding being Fat, I suspect my daughter would call Fat to both but definitively the Catalina is a lot fatter: after all we are comparing boats with the same length, one with 7400g and the other with 9299Kg, a huge difference in what regards wet surface. Non notwithstanding the much smaller RM wet area they have a similar sail area and you know what that means regarding speed.

Regarding length the Hull of the Catalina is slightly bigger (12.34 to 11.99m). They do that at RM to make sure that the boats pay in Marinas the charge for boats under 12 m but if you look at the more relevant data in what regards interior space and performance, the LWL, then things become inverted and then the RM is considerably bigger than the Catalina (11.13 to 11.68m).

Catalina Boats | 2012 Catalina Ocean Series 400mkII

http://www.charles-watson.com/downlo...0RM%201260.pdf

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-19-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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