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  #71  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Brian, I will discuss not this here but I would say that I consider that boat to be a better voyage boat than the Catalina or any other main market mass produced boat. Not my opinion only it is a consensual opinion in Europe. The boat was designed for that and perfected along many years.

The boat as designed with long range voyage in mind having as basis the more adapted hull boats forms to solo sailing, particularly in the trade winds that is where everybody travels, at least while sailing. That is pretty evident to me and the advantages are too many to list, at least in what regards my available time. The boat is extensively used for that and it is as popular for that as the several brands of aluminium boats. It is one of the very few brands that are not shrinking with the crisis but growing. That shows the interest of the ones that like voyaging for the concept.

In fact I had test sailed one (previous model) because that was really one of the boats that I was considering and in what regards storage and interior space my wife's favorite (with the Southerly 42).

I had in fact to struggle with her to choose another boat. The boast is fast and it is a performance voyage boat but it was not nervous enough for me. I mean it did not deliver that crisp feeling that a sports car deliver and that make driving or sailing truly enjoyable for me. That was the same reason why I did not consider the Jeanneau 409 (the faster performance version).

Saying all that, I would say that it would not be the ideal boat for someone that would chose to circumnavigate or voyage the wrong way, I mean against the preponderant winds but then, neither the Catalina.

Regarding going upwind with waves, both your boat and the RM are not a model of comfort but I doubt that boat would be worse than yours. What counts there is how fine are the entries and the tridimensional shape of the hull, specially the bow and frontal part. The RM even if it has a fat ass has finer entries than the Catalina :





The boat foot print, I mean will also be much smaller on the RM. These type of boats, like the shape of them or not, have a diagonal thin foot print while sailing. Looking at the footprint we would say that we are talking about a narrow boat.

Regarding being Fat, I suspect my daughter would call Fat to both but definitively the Catalina is a lot fatter: after all we are comparing boats with the same length, one with 7400g and the other with 9299Kg, a huge difference in what regards wet surface. Non notwithstanding the much smaller RM wet area they have a similar sail area and you know what that means regarding speed.

Regarding length the Hull of the Catalina is slightly bigger (12.34 to 11.99m). They do that at RM to make sure that the boats pay in Marinas the charge for boats under 12 m but if you look at the more relevant data in what regards interior space and performance, the LWL, then things become inverted and then the RM is considerably bigger than the Catalina (11.13 to 11.68m).

Catalina Boats | 2012 Catalina Ocean Series 400mkII

http://www.charles-watson.com/downlo...0RM%201260.pdf

Regards

Paulo
Hey Paulo,

Unless I could step on that boat, I would probably have a difficult time agreeing or disagreeing with you. I do not believe the Catalina is a good world-voyager. It is a great islands boat, lots of room, great storage (on this model... others do not), lots of hatches for ventilation and light. It makes a good boat for that purpose. However, she lacks many things I would look for in a long distance cruising boat. However, many of those things that I would look for are also lacking in the RM... and probably ANY 'racer-cruiser', which of course is what this whole thread was about.

I believe that every boat was designed with a purpose in mind. That makes some boats better at some things than others. Just like I wouldn't race a Tayana 42, I wouldn't cruise on a First or J122. Can you? Sure. Can you MAKE it work? Absolutely. But why MAKE it work, when there are better boats built to the purpose you are going to use them for.

In the discussion of this thread, what I have tried to point out is what I carry as a cruiser. As mentioned, some of these things are kid related, and as there are very few cruisers with kids, some of these things can be removed. However, in general, I believe that most people here will see that the things I carry are the same things they would carry on their boat. These things take up space. That space must be allotted on the boat. Racer-cruisers in general have much less storage space than the typical performance or HD cruiser (that I have ever been on). So my point was that if you are going to choose one of these boats to cruise on, you will likely have every single corner stuffed with things. You will be forced to put things that HD boats could store below the waterline, above it. You may be forced to place things in berths or in heads where they are not locked down well, will roll in a sea, and are hard to get to. All of this will not only affect the performance of your vessel, but the comfort of it as well. In the end, you may find that the racer-cruiser boat has lost many of the qualities you thought you were cruising on it for in the first place.

That was my point.

I would also like to discuss specifics or the RM boat with you if you want? I found it wanting.

First, and I have said this before: Where do you lean your back against when sailing? Laying up against the lifelines on the high side is fine for a day cruise, but my back (and I am only 41) would be killing me after a day or two at sea. And what about your butt? Do you find that acceptable? They need a foot rest in the cockpit or some place to push up against you can sit in the seats. Look at the fellows in the picture you put a link to: http://www.charles-watson.com/downlo...0RM%201260.pdf

Do either one of them look comfortable to you? THe one sitting down has to lean all the way across to the other seats, thus his back is only supported by the corner of the coaming. THe other is having to lean over behind the wheel. Now, don't get me wrong, but that would be fine for a day sail, but day(s) at sea?

Second, from the pics, I see this as a boat with very minimal storage. There is minimal storage in the staterooms, the galley, and none in the salon (except in the settes). The line drawings show a rather shallow bilge, but I have not been on the boat so am just guessing. I am not guessing about the cabinetry. As I have shown in my previous post, with specifics and exacts of what I carry, how do you make this work? I gave exact dimension that this stuff takes up, so where do you put it all?

THird: Tankage. 34 gallons is very low for fuel for cruising in my opinion. I carry about 45, plus another 20. I have 45 gallons of holding tanks. What is the holding tank of the 1260? I suspect it is minimal, like the Jenneau 409 (20 gallons). 20 gallons will not last you long. Surely you agree?

Fourth: You data on the C400 is incorrect. The LWL is 38 feet (same as the RM). I know this because I pulled a tape measure on it. The Draft is 6 feet with the wing. The engine is a 54, not a 56. The water is wrong, the holding is wrong, it only has one ice box not two, etc. There is a LOT of incorrect information on the C400 floating around the net.

Fifth: Do you like those huge portlights? They look good in the brochure, but are they a good idea for a boat that goes to sea? For example, the portlight that is sitting under the goose neck under the mast... don't you think that is a really bad idea? The large portlights running each side of the cabin top? There is no such thing as a shoe that grips wet plastic. THat stuff becomes ice when it gets wet.

Brian
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  #72  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Hey Paulo,

... However, many of those things that I would look for are also lacking in the RM... and probably ANY 'racer-cruiser', which of course is what this whole thread was about. I believe that every boat was designed with a purpose in mind. That makes some boats better at some things than others. Just like I wouldn't race a Tayana 42, I wouldn't cruise on a First or J122. Can you? Sure. Can you MAKE it work? Absolutely. But why MAKE it work, when there are better boats built to the purpose you are going to use them for.
Brian, I have already explained that: Not all performance boats are cruiser racers but all cruiser racers are performance boats. What makes a cruiser racer is to be designed specifically to a dual propose, cruising and racing. that is not the case with the RM that was designed has a performance voyage boat, meaning voyaging fast. There are other boats designed with that purpose in mind. The Cigale comes to my mind because it was one of the first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

In the discussion of this thread, what I have tried to point out is what I carry as a cruiser. As mentioned, some of these things are kid related, and as there are very few cruisers with kids, some of these things can be removed. However, in general, I believe that most people here will see that the things I carry are the same things they would carry on their boat. These things take up space. That space must be allotted on the boat.
Brian I never wanted to say that the type of boat you have is not adequate for what you do. You just think to assume that all like to live and voyage like you and that is just not true. Some like to carry 6 anchors, a washing machine I even had saw a motorcycle and much more stuff than what you have. For those your boat would be inadequate.

Those that like to travel fast like to travel light and would not take all the stuff you carry. Not that the RM was not able to carry all that stuff you carry and still be more fast than your boat (Bob Perry explained why in another thread) but the boat would be much slower than what has potential to be and nobody would buy that kind boat for loading it that way. They buy it in first place because they like to voyage fast and weight is always an enemy of speed and they know it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Racer-cruisers in general have much less storage space than the typical performance or HD cruiser (that I have ever been on). So my point was that if you are going to choose one of these boats to cruise on, you will likely have every single corner stuffed with things. You will be forced to put things that HD boats could store below the waterline, above it. You may be forced to place things in berths or in heads where they are not locked down well, will roll in a sea, and are hard to get to. All of this will not only affect the performance of your vessel, but the comfort of it as well. In the end, you may find that the racer-cruiser boat has lost many of the qualities you thought you were cruising on it for in the first place.

That was my point.
Yes I agree. Except that the RM is not a cruiser racer but a voyage boat. In what regards cruiser racers you are right. If someone want to carry the same kind of stuff in a cruiser-racer he has to buy a bigger boat (not a 40ft but a 43 or 45ft). I have already said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I would also like to discuss specifics or the RM boat with you if you want? I found it wanting.

First, and I have said this before: Where do you lean your back against when sailing? Laying up against the lifelines on the high side is fine for a day cruise, but my back (and I am only 41) would be killing me after a day or two at sea. And what about your butt? Do you find that acceptable? They need a foot rest in the cockpit or some place to push up against you can sit in the seats. Look at the fellows in the picture you put a link to: http://www.charles-watson.com/downlo...0RM%201260.pdf

Do either one of them look comfortable to you? THe one sitting down has to lean all the way across to the other seats, thus his back is only supported by the corner of the coaming. THe other is having to lean over behind the wheel. Now, don't get me wrong, but that would be fine for a day sail, but day(s) at sea?
I don't understand your point. When one voyage the voyage is made most of the time on autopilot. The RM has the hull based on solo racers and as those is the best and easiest boat to be run on autopilot, even on demanding conditions. You can even sail the boat from the chart table with a joystick. The boat was conceived for that. You can see the sails, both sides and straight ahead, from the chart table.

When enjoying sailing (on the fast lane) at the ruder or wheel (just for the fun of it) the boat gives you lots of space around the wheels where you can enjoy it. It offers you also a nice lateral spot where you can fit in tightly and have support all around.

Note also the traveller at easy reach of the one that is steering the boat. That will contribute for a better control in the conditions were one would have pleasure at the wheel.





I have to go. I will continue later regarding the other points.

Regards

Paulo
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  #73  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
.....
Second, from the pics, I see this as a boat with very minimal storage. There is minimal storage in the staterooms, the galley, and none in the salon (except in the settes). The line drawings show a rather shallow bilge, but I have not been on the boat so am just guessing. I am not guessing about the cabinetry. As I have shown in my previous post, with specifics and exacts of what I carry, how do you make this work? I gave exact dimension that this stuff takes up, so where do you put it all?
You should be kidding:



That fat ass really provides an outstanding storage space. There is more on the outside and only accessible from there.

The boat has normal sized wardrobes (vertical cabinets) on the cabins, two on the front cabin one on the back one:



besides that the boat has the tankage all on the side (that gives a better motion comfort). Look at the space behind the settees, it is where it is and the space is so big that works as two extra berths. This permits to have most of the space behind the settees as storage.



Like yours this boat has a big galley with lots of storage (not bigger than yours?) with a big cold storage space:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
.
THird: Tankage. 34 gallons is very low for fuel for cruising in my opinion. I carry about 45, plus another 20. I have 45 gallons of holding tanks. What is the holding tank of the 1260? I suspect it is minimal, like the Jenneau 409 (20 gallons). 20 gallons will not last you long. Surely you agree?
Why the hell do you think a voyage boat will have the same holding tanks as a typical cruising boat like Jeanneau? I don't know what is the capacity but this is a boat that allows some customization and if you want it would not be difficult to have a huge black water tank

Regarding fuel. You will certainly run out of fuel first. This boat needs only about less the wind you need to sail decently and this is not the type of boat for cruisers that carry a generator. Besides the boat comes equipped with the tankage that suits most of the cruisers that will sail and voyage on this boat. They mount additional tanks if someone needs them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

Fifth: Do you like those huge portlights? They look good in the brochure, but are they a good idea for a boat that goes to sea? For example, the portlight that is sitting under the goose neck under the mast... don't you think that is a really bad idea? The large portlights running each side of the cabin top? There is no such thing as a shoe that grips wet plastic. THat stuff becomes ice when it gets wet.
Portlights well made have no problem and this is a cruising boat, not a racer, a boat made to enjoy live and the scenery and as I said, that great visibility to the outside (I am talking about the upper one) allows you to sail the boat from the inside, in stormy weather or simply when it rains. When you voyage you cannot always chose sunny days

Regarding "the large portlights running each side of the cabin top" how can they be slippery if they are practically vertical?



They are a great idea because they not only provide an interior with lots of light as they contribute to make possible to sail the boat from inside.

Brian, I don't pretend to sell this boat to you. That is not the point and this is not obviously a boat that would suit you. This is a boat for the ones that like to voyage far away, fast and safe, not for the ones that like to travel with a lot of stuff. The point is that there are a significant number of those sailors so significant that RM was been growing fast in production numbers, kind of 2 or 3 times more than some years ago.

The point is that this was the boat that won 2013 European boat of the year in the class of family cruiser. This means that many testers from many nationalities that know all boats on the market think this is not only a great voyage boat but also a boat that is not a marginal one anymore meaning that the ones that use them (the ones that like to voyage fast and light) are growing in numbers and are not a small minority anymore.

You should stop thinking that there are only a right and sensible way to cruise and voyage. Nothing wrong with your Catalina that is a good cruising boat, but that does not make it the perfect compromise in what regards cruising and voyaging except maybe for you, certainly not for all.

With friendship,

Paulo
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  #74  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Out here in California, the best deal you are going to get on a Jeanneau 409 is $269,000. The whole “racer-cruiser”, “performance cruiser” is just marketing speech from the builders and sail magazines. The terms are whatever you want them to be – there is no governmental or standards board definition. I’ve been cooling on the idea of the 409 lately but I still think I will go out sailing on one in the next couple of weeks. I’ll keep you posted. One thing that has me curious is the wide variety of boats that get posted to Paulo’s thread. Now, I’ve only been sailing in Germany, Norway and Great Britain, but I didn’t see the large volume of “exotic” boats that Paulo writes about. Where do I find the European version of our YRA and where can I find the results of the various regattas? All I find are the professional type races and I’m not interested in “NASCAR” results. I agree with Cruising Dad that although one can cruise in a gentrified racer, does it have the same “suitability of use” as either a purpose made cruiser or a (modified) boat from one of the production houses?
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Brian- I am 100% on your side. Would note with many designs you give up little or nothing in vmg for the type of sailing we do and still have the benefits of displacement and ability to cruise in comfort and style. I know feeling secure and comfortable will mean we will push the boat more so passage times should be fairly close. I look at Paulo's posts and choices and know those boats are not where my wife and I would choose to live. I showed her european boats, South African boats. New Zealand boats, one offs . glass boats aluminum boats even steel boats etc. but when we boarded a sistership of our boat and then had the joy of sailing her we knew we found home. I believe once you look at a vessel as home be it for a month a year or forever the comfort factor becomes important beyond measure. I'm not talking about comfort in terms of boat motion( although that's important) but comfort in terms of a place you feel totally at home . For me this did include excellent performance and a sense my boat 'been there done that" so I need not be concerned about the integrety of the vessel. But my boat feels like a place that was built for me. All the details fix the needs of my wife and I. And it stirs my heart with beauty inside and out. I know we don't meet your definition of cruiser as part of our deal was to sell the house but keep a pied a terre somewhere but find we think alot alike.
Only disagrement with you is about the generator. Going to try and do without one. May change our mind when we go south if we find we need to run the AC alot.
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  #76  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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... I’ll keep you posted. One thing that has me curious is the wide variety of boats that get posted to Paulo’s thread. Now, I’ve only been sailing in Germany, Norway and Great Britain, but I didn’t see the large volume of “exotic” boats that Paulo writes about. Where do I find the European version of our YRA and where can I find the results of the various regattas? All I find are the professional type races and I’m not interested in “NASCAR” results. ...
A agree with you completely on that and I suggest that sailing one day on a boat is not enough unless you have narrowed down to the precise type if boat that suits you. I have charted several boats for a week and more to find out what was the kind of boat I was interested in (sailed out others with friends or in limited test sails).

The best place to try new boats is Croatia. The importers of different boats have brand new boats or boats with one or two years that you can charter. Be aware that those boats have a huge demand and that now it will be probably too late to manage to charter one of those, at least for this summer.

For testing a RM the best place is the Atlantic coast of France. if you talk with the shipyards they will point you in the right direction.

Regarding the comparative performance of the boat you have plenty places (ORC, PHRF, LYS) that rate sailboats, (cruisers and performance cruisers) in a quite precise way. You will have a pretty good idea of the average performances of each sailboat.

Regarding to look at the race results as information the best places are races with a huge number of participants. In those most of the boats are cruising sailboats. It is better to look at European races not only because they are bigger in numbers but also because the average age of the boats is much lower.

As I said there are plenty and I post about them on "interesting boat thread" but just to give some examples, the ARC.

World Cruising Club - ARC Results

J.P. Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race - Results for the 2012 race

You have to look at real time results, not handicap.

Regards

Paulo
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  #77  
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Brian- I am 100% on your side. Would note with many designs you give up little or nothing in vmg for the type of sailing we do and still have the benefits of displacement and ability to cruise in comfort and style. I know feeling secure and comfortable will mean we will push the boat more so passage times should be fairly close. I look at Paulo's posts and choices and know those boats are not where my wife and I would choose to live. ....
What side? The one that says that there is only one type of cruising and voyage boat that fits all?

My side is that there are many types of voyage boats all adapted to a given type of cruising and voyaging, but covering different and specific needs. Some of them are way slower and heavier than the Catalina 400. They suit different kinds of sailors and are the perfect choice for each one of them. That's why there are a specific market for each type of long range cruisers, because long range cruisers wants them: they suit their living and sailing style but different living and sailing styles anyway.

This thread seems to be about the ones that prefer to voyage fast and enjoy sailing while they are doing that and the boats adequate to them. There are a relatively big offer of small production boats for this kind of sailors and that means that there is a lot of them.

What is your point and Brian's point? That those sailors are wrong and cannot enjoy sailing and live the way they like?

That only the way that you like to voyage and live and the boats adapted to that particular "taste" are good and adequate to long range voyage?

I confess I don't get your or Brian's point. Maybe I have understood wrongly and this thread is about the right of existence of sailors that like to voyage fast and the boats that are designed for them.

whatever you say they exist and in growing numbers, as well as the boats adapted to them. That you don't like their live style and their boats and that they are not fit to you? Big deal, that's obvious. What about you understanding that the reverse is also true: That those sailors would not be interested in a Catalina 400 as a voyage boat because it does not fit their life style, voyage style and sailing pleasure?


Regards

Paulo
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  #78  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Only disagrement with you is about the generator. Going to try and do without one. May change our mind when we go south if we find we need to run the AC alot.
I hope you don't need a generator. I think a lot of it is how you 'cruise'. If your time on anchor is limited, and you find yourself in marinas frequently, you will not. Same with a watermaker. But between the fridge, hair dryer, hot water, coffee pot, toaster, microwave, etc, etc... you might be surprised!

And if I was going to go back, I would probably buy the little Honda like many here have done. Seems a lot closer to the KISS principle, it is cheap, and seems reliable. The only negative is you will now have to carry more gasoline, versus diesel.

Anyways, look forward to seeing you out here!! My kids have always wanted a babysitter that had an Outbound!

Brian
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What side? The one that says that there is only one type of cruising and voyage boat that fits all?

My side is that there are many types of voyage boats all adapted to a given type of cruising and voyaging, but covering different and specific needs. Some of them are way slower and heavier than the Catalina 400. They suit different kinds of sailors and are the perfect choice for each one of them. That's why there are a specific market for each type of long range cruisers, because long range cruisers wants them: they suit their living and sailing style but different living and sailing styles anyway.

This thread seems to be about the ones that prefer to voyage fast and enjoy sailing while they are doing that and the boats adequate to them. There are a relatively big offer of small production boats for this kind of sailors and that means that there is a lot of them.

What is your point and Brian's point? That those sailors are wrong and cannot enjoy sailing and live the way they like?

That only the way that you like to voyage and live and the boats adapted to that particular "taste" are good and adequate to long range voyage?

I confess I don't get your or Brian's point. Maybe I have understood wrongly and this thread is about the right of existence of sailors that like to voyage fast and the boats that are designed for them.

whatever you say they exist and in growing numbers, as well as the boats adapted to them. That you don't like their live style and their boats and that they are not fit to you? Big deal, that's obvious. What about you understanding that the reverse is also true: That those sailors would not be interested in a Catalina 400 as a voyage boat because it does not fit their life style, voyage stile and sailing pleasure?


Regards

Paulo
Paulo,

I am not taking anything you say personally. I agree with your signature earlier: in friendship. This is simply a discussion about boats and use, especially as it pertains to racing type boats.

My point in all of this, which I may not have explained well, is to discuss the feasibility of certain boats for cruising. It certainly is not to pick on any particular boat or say that a particular boat is 'bad'.

I have tried to be very specific in my comments and reasoning. I have laid out exactly what I carry and the space it takes up. My point in doing that was to discuss what we carry, how it would fit in other boats, what might be excluded, and the repercussions/impacts of putting the chosen items on other boats.

What I wanted others to see is that many of the things, if not most of the things we carry, are not unique to us. You will find that if you are a cruiser, you will carry these items too. As you look through my list and discount some items, you may realistically add other items too which are important to you. As you do, you will begin to get a feel for the amount of storage which you will need to successfully or comfortably cruise on the boat of your choice to the comfort level of your choice. You may also see that you will have to do without things in order to make your boat of choice work. This may alter your boat choice.

I keep comparing these different boats to a Catalina 400, though I could also do the same with a Tayana 42 or Catalina 380. My reason for using these boats as opposing examples are not because I consider these the perfect boat to go cruising on. In fact, I do not. However, I know the boats and their strengths and weaknesses. I know what works here and does not - first hand. I have lived through and experienced things that I like, things I don't, things that have worked for us, and things that have not. I then compare these experiences against other boats and how those experiences would influence my selection of those boats for a cruiser. For example, I have been on several Firsts and a J122. I see very serious shortcomings with those boats for the cruising we do, and in fact, the cruising most anyone would do. I also believe those shortcomings would not be unique to us. I have tried to lay out specifics on why.

When discussing the RM, I do not in any way think it is a bad boat. I have tried to be very cautious when discussing it because I have not personally seen the boat and am making judgement calls and comparisons to mine without a first hand examination. However, I still see (from experience) things that cry out to me as deficiencies.

So to be clear, I was trying to discuss boats from a cruising point of view. I wanted to be specific and make this an educational discussion. This thread was never to pick out the perfect boat. It was also in no way to say you cannot cruise on a particular boat. It was simply a thread of information and discussions on what works, what we each like, what we don't like, and the tradeoffs of certain boats if you chose them for cruising (specifically racer-cruisers) and why. In this discussion, I wanted to bring out specifics on some boats and discuss them. The RM was a good example, but I have not set foot on one, so much of what I am talking about is from pictures... which I hesitate to do. However, even with the RM, I think we can have a reasonable discussion on its negatives and positives. We can do the same on the C400 and I can give many negatives of the C400 for cruising also.

That was my point.

Brian
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  #80  
Old 04-23-2013
GeorgeB's Avatar
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo posted an interesting link for the various ARC rallies. First, there are a lot of really rich folks out there and the vast majority of boats are in the $500K (USD) to $1M price range. The typical 45-65 foot Oysters, Hylas, Moodys etc. Hardly my price range (Perhaps Paulo can adopt me?). Second observation is very few of the boats in the “Interesting Boat” thread are there either. Paulo, If you have a link to Portugal’s YRA race results, I’d appreciate that as I want to see what the “common man” is racing over there.

One of the big problems we are having is one of definition. How about we use more quantitative methods in our discussion? The boats would be more comparable if we placed them side by side on a table. I have done this for my own boat as well as the 400 and 409. Please double check the numbers. For example, the Jeanneau’s keel and displacement values appear to be on the light side. I have a series of formulas that calculate all sorts of ratios so that might be of future interest.

The “fatty” 400 is a mere 5 inches wider than the Jeanneau. Another surprising dimension is the 409’s LWL is only an inch shorter than it’s LOA.

Catalina 34 MkII Catalina 400 Jeaneau 409 Aereodyne 38
LOA 34.5 40.5 40.5 37.66
LWL 29.83 30.50 39.25 34.21
Beam 11.75 13.50 13.08 13.00
Draft 5.58 6.92 6.83 7.75
Ballast 5,000 8,300 4,982 4,150
Displacement 11,950 20,500 17,328 11,250
Sail Area 528 808 773 795
I 44.0 52.7 50.9 50.8
J 13.5 15.5 14.8 14.5
P 38.6 47.0 49.2 51.8
E 12.0 17.0 16.1 16.5
Fuel 25 35 53 25
Water 59 110 87 70
Base PHRF 144 110 73 27
"Sail Away" $111,500 $179,300 $269,000 $159,000
Engine M35B Yanmar 56 Yanmar 40 Yanmar 27
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Last edited by GeorgeB; 04-23-2013 at 07:48 PM.
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